Archaeologica.org

What do you mean, 'not true', Seeker? I'm not pretending to know the truth and have said at least twice that I'm not an expert on these stories. I was just replying to your question about why I think a certain way - to give reasons for my thoughts ....I have no idea what the truth is ... I've put u...

Ish - While I respect your position I think you are guilty of projecting onto me the flaw you are making in this thread. All along your argument is based on an evaluation of Origen as Gnostic, which he wasn't, and Celsus as ignorant when his arguments are only known through Origen. This false equiva...

However, it does look as if the Jews at one time, (Bible minimalists would say around the 6th century BC) took the Sumerian Garden of Eden story and either misunderstood it, or deliberately turned it on its head to invent "Original Sin". Quick correction, Ish. Jews do not have Original Si...

How do you figure it shows that 'without a doubt? I doubt that. :wink: Because, 1. There is no indication that that is Ea's motive. Usually motives are made very clear in myths. They don't expect you to read between the lines, as there are no lines to read between. The stories are recited orally, s...

I wouldn't usually, these days, take a pen portrait of someone from Wikipedia as an authoriative confirmation of who they were. So I only post this one from Wiki now, on Celsus, because it almost entirely agrees with my impression of the man that I had gleaned previously from reading Origen: http:/...

The Mysteries were practised in Greece, and many Gnostic sects were based on a similar inner philosophy, and they copied the same format of initiations. But my point is, there is no evidence that Celsus understands that. You are forgetting that all we know of Celsus arguments is thew representation...

Would that it were that simple. Another way to read it is that if Enki allowed Adapa to dring the water of life or eat the food of life then he would become a God and the gods would no longer have men as slaves. What it does show, without a doubt, is that Enki did not deliberately trick his son, as...

oooop[s, my fault. I copied the wrong paragraph.: Like all quacks they gather a crowd of slaves, children, women and idlers. I speak bitterly about this", says Celsus, "because I feel bitterly. When we are invited to the Mysteries the masters use another tone. They say, Come to us you who...

oooop[s, my fault. I copied the wrong paragraph.: Like all quacks they gather a crowd of slaves, children, women and idlers. I speak bitterly about this", says Celsus, "because I feel bitterly. When we are invited to the Mysteries the masters use another tone. They say, Come to us you who ...

Would that it were that simple. Another way to read it is that if Enki allowed Adapa to dring the water of life or eat the food of life then he would become a God and the gods would no longer have men as slaves.

It does seem that Celsus made some effort to iron out the various doctrines which were all parading about at the time under the Christian Banner. He's not simply mouthing off. I agree, Celsus was pretty careful in his criticism to separate Christianity from other mystery religions. BTW, here is som...

Ish - I get a kick out of the 'literalist atheist' thing. Do you realiize that atheism is simply non-belief? If anything you might accuse Celsus is refuting the literal story which brings up something interesting. What makes you think Celsus was particularly against Gnosticism or all religion? In f...

Ish - You might want to read the Adapa myth, it is Enki who tricks man out of the immortality offered by the Gods.

Ish - I get a kick out of the 'literalist atheist' thing. Do you realiize that atheism is simply non-belief? If anything you might accuse Celsus is refuting the literal story which brings up something interesting. What makes you think Celsus was particularly against Gnosticism or all religion? In fa...

Well, it's ironic really, because although Enki and Enlil don't literally exist, we have ended up for the last 2,000 years with the religion of Enlil - the church that combined with the state to herd us into politico-economic units and told us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to obe...