Bluehenge unearthed

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Digit
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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Digit » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:02 pm

First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Minimalist » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:31 pm

When we look at the hard science behind the bluestones story, there is quite a lot of evidence to support the idea that the bluestones at Stonehenge are no more than glacial erratics that were transported by the ice, maybe 450,000 years ago and then picked up somewhere in the Salisbury Plain in the East Somerset area – probably within easy striking distance of Stonehenge and that is where they were picked up from.

Exactly the right number and appropriate size for the later project? That's pushing coincidence way too far.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Digit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:34 am

No Min! You are reading into the post more than is there.

Roy.
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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Minimalist » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:37 am

I'd like to see one laying around the area that didn't make the grade for Stonehenge. I grew up on Long Island which was a terminal moraine. There were rocks EVERYWHERE.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Digit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:04 am

There is no suggestion Min, nor has there ever been, that the Blue Stones were packed and delivered to the Stonehenge site by a glacier or an ice sheet!
Only that glacial action moved them from their original sites, which currently number over 20.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Minimalist » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:41 pm

the bluestones at Stonehenge are no more than glacial erratics that were transported by the ice, maybe 450,000 years ago and then picked up somewhere in the Salisbury Plain in the East Somerset area

That sounds exactly like what he is saying. I'm not insisting on a FEDEX tag on them but a glacier should have "transported" lots of stones and the ones which were not "picked up" should still be there.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:29 am

Point taken Min but it seems we are at an RS interpretation point!
I said the SH site my friend. The known erratics are near to Bristol, so may well be on Salisbury Plain, but the Somerset end is a damned long way from SH! Which also, I think, answers your last point.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Minimalist » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:52 am

Moving a large stone even a foot requires a population base, some technology, and some organizational skills....not to mention the society in question must be able to divert that much labor from subsistence activities long enough to get the job done.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Tiompan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:37 am

Minimalist wrote:Moving a large stone even a foot requires a population base, some technology, and some organizational skills....not to mention the society in question must be able to divert that much labor from subsistence activities long enough to get the job done.
Whether the Blustones were moved by glacial action or not there are many examples of prehistoric peoples moving
much stones great distances in non -glaciated areas .

George

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:30 pm

Absolutely Min. I'm not on my own computer as it blew a fuse just before Christmas and I haven't yet had time to repair it so I'm missing much of my data, but IIRC English Heritage would only permit the chemical analysis of a limited number of the stones.
I think it was 12 at the time as it invovled removing a small piece of stone.
Of the 12? only 5 came from the assumed origin of Carn Menyn and surroundings.
Since then non destructive methods have been developed and the numberof sites identified is over 20, 27 I think.
Unfortunately the vast majority of people will never have had the opportunity to visit the Preseli Hills, they are not particularly high, but they are exposed to the full blast of Atlantic storms and are pretty bleak.
Taking the high road over the top there are but two farms, both in sheltered hollows and surrounded by trees, the rest of the area is the occasional softwood plantation where the soils are deep enough and Sheep!
No Gorse, no Braken, no Heathers, nothing but sedge and grass. Ok, Sheeo will eat them out I know, but equally there is nothing where Sheep are fenced out, it's just too cold, too wet and too bloody windy. The whole area is studded with rocky outcrops, narrow water courses, valleys and steep slopes.
The soil is so thin that water rushes off within minutes of falling, altogether a most univiting place to live, though popular during summer.
My point in all this is the sheer difficulty of moving heavy weights across it. Having said that I do not doubt that it could have been accomplished, but not over unprepared ground, some form of leveling, grading and filling would have been essential. No such evidence exists nor any records, folk tales etc.
None of which need be conclusive, but I suggest that if that much effort was required to move stones from the favoured site at Carn Menyn why did they source stone from eleswhere where it would have been necessary to construct further trackways?
It fails to make any sense Min.
Carn Menyn is often referred to as a quarry, again a misnomer, the stones stand in ice broken columns, ideal for fire place lintels and gate posts, as they were, and probably still are used. But Carn Menyn is over a thousand feet above sea level which in fact is one of the highest points of the hills, they must have been masochists to chose such a place!
This area was, and still is, one of the most underpopulated in the UK, roads are still narrow and few, with the country so broken it is a common joke that Wales would be larger than England if it was rolled flat!
The odd assortment of stone, and the varied sources, is to me far more suggestive of erratics than of carefully selected sites.
One of the arguments put forward for the Preseli Hills is the 'magical' property of the area and supposed sacredness of the locality, so why then fetch stone from even further away and away from the supposed 'magic?'
Again Min, it makes no sense.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Tiompan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:39 pm

Digit wrote: George, I agree with your point about what others have done, but over such terrible ground?

Roy.
If the ground is covered in ice or snow more awkward areas become more manageable .
Whatever the case with the bluestones ,Thorpe and Williams Thorpe have overstated their case in concluding their was no long distance transport (their figure was 5 km ).
The movements we are aware of involve shifting much heavier stones than the bluestones , which were about 4 tons .
The Old Keig recumbent weighs about 50 tons and was dragged up a gradient of 1:14 from the nearest quarrying spot of it it's type i.e. Sillimanite gneiss
about six miles away .Despite being northerly this area was has been shown to have been free from glaciation .Another area free from glaciation is the Channel Islands which has passage graves built from stones that have ben hauled uphill , one La Hougue Bie is located on high land devoid of stones with the building material weighing up to 20 tonnes and derived from areas at sea level ,in some cases 7 km away . These examples pale into insignificance when compared with North African examples .

George

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Minimalist » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:27 pm

I fixed the double post for you, Dig.
I'm not on my own computer as it blew a fuse just before Christmas

Your computer has fuses?


George, "pre-historic" does not mean "primitive." In fact, all it may mean is that whatever they used to write on or with was not durable enough for us to find and decipher. There are primitive, HG, populations today in isolated areas and we do not see them building megalithic structures.

Nonetheless, you're right about the stones and Stonehenge is far from the only example. The fact is we really are not even sure how the Egyptians quarried and moved massive granite blocks or obelisks...although it seems everyone has a guess. Maybe they weren't as primitive as our ego wishes them to be?

In any case, I recall my visit to Stonehenge and the area seemed well-watered which means streams and creeks and crossing even a modest stream with a large rock seems like a daunting task if all you have are ropes and ( maybe) rollers.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:45 pm

Your computer has fuses?
Metaphorically speaking Min.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... CC4Q9QEwAg

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... CDAQ9QEwAw
Take a look at the background in these images, anybody like to try and drag a heavy weight across that lot.
But in any case gentlemen, how do you explain the numerous different sources other than by ice transport?

You might also like to read this, it's from a walking tour.

Stop 3: Preseli mountain and the Gwaun/Jordanston valleys

No photos I am afraid. The system is too large to capture. Mynydd Preseli stands out markedly against the generally flat Pembrokeshire countryside, and the mountain trends generally east to west, oblique to supposed Irish sea ice-flow directions. Therefore Charlesworth thought that the Irish Sea glacier terminated at Mynydd Preseli. Charlesworth also depicted the limit of his south-Wales end-moraine at Mynydd Preseli because of the extensive rock-cut meltwater systems that are the Gwaun and Jordanston valleys. These valleys are very impressive but hazardous valleys to drive in (if you are in a minibus). They are steep sided and narrow along the valley floors, and very deep.


And this...
Much of the upland is boggy and, as a result, very acidic so you can find rare acid tolerant plants like fir clubmoss, liverwort, ferns and orchids with insects like the marsh fritillary butterfly and the southern damselfly. Heather carpets the drier heathland in late summer look out for buzzards, kestrels, curlews, ravens and skylarks.
The high lighting is mine and the writer is pretty accurate. I know the area well as I live just north of Cardigan, I was also an engineer and I would not have wanted the task of getting stone from there to anywhere. I would point out that I know of no useage for the Blue stone, even in modern times, other than very close to the outcrops.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Tiompan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:11 pm

Minimalist wrote:I fixed the double post for you, Dig.
I'm not on my own computer as it blew a fuse just before Christmas

Your computer has fuses?


George, "pre-historic" does not mean "primitive." In fact, all it may mean is that whatever they used to write on or with was not durable enough for us to find and decipher. There are primitive, HG, populations today in isolated areas and we do not see them building megalithic structures.

.
I didn't suggest it did i.e. "prehistoric means primitive " . It may well have been an HG population that built Gobleki Tepi .

George
Last edited by Tiompan on Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bluehenge unearthed

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:20 pm

Tiompan wrote:
Minimalist wrote:I fixed the double post for you, Dig.
I'm not on my own computer as it blew a fuse just before Christmas

Your computer has fuses?
It's a Welsh computer. Probably runs on coal and steam.

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