Roman DNA

[Simon21]

did he replace all the former officials in Britain with his own creatures?

As you noted, he ended up dead so his intentions were irrelevant. Honorius, though, clearly considered Britain a lost cause and the troops that were withdrawn were needed elsewhere. Not that it did him all that much good. The Western Empire was little more than a name on a map.

Well no, a person's arrangements can live after them. And I do not see how you can make this judgement. Magnus Maximus, Carausius etc all tried to expand their holdings while keeping Britain. And no the Western empire was more than a name on the map - what about Aetius, What about Stilicho? etc.

[Simon21]

The end of the Roman Empire is fraught with controversy. It has been pointed out numerous times that what does such a phrase mean? First off it didn't mean the end of Rome - East Rome went on for another 1000 years. It did not mean an end to taxes or roman law and it didn't mean an end to Roman Christianity. It does seem to have mean an end to overarching political control, but again though well establsihed in the fourth century this had been missing in the third.

Recently much emphasis has been put on the destruction wrought by Christian mobs both on buildings and people. The hideous death of Hypatia and the massacre of Jews in Thessalonica might only be tastes of a much more widespread phenomenon. If it were possible to travel to 400 it is possible that one would see widespread destruction in towns, but it would not have been caused by the bararians.

In Britain there is not much evidence for this it has to be said. Some ritual wells at Silbury Hill were deliberately filled in and the London Mithraeum appears to have been destroyed, but not much else, Lydney (restored apparently by Julian the Apostate) was not sacked.

Britain was certainly christian as far as can be told, Birling refers to reurbished graves in a cemetery in Hampshire (?). There were refurbished paths as well to the graves indicating people came to honour them - she speculates they could have been saints and we are seeing the evidence of pilgrimages. There is also St Patrick who doesn't mention pagans and nether does Gildas though he certainly didn't think much of his fellow British christians.

[Minimalist]

Agreed and the date of 476 when Odoacer deposed the last Western Roman emperor is merely a convenience. The demise of the Western Empire was a long, drawn out process. They got a brief break with the victory over the Huns at the Catalaunian Plains but in fairness there were probably as many if not more Visigoths under Theodoric present. That was merely 25 years before the official end of the Empire. The situation sort of reminds me of the end of the USSR. It was a charade and all someone had to do was kick the door in.

Glad you mentioned the xtian atrocities in the 5th century. There's a fine book called the Jesus Wars by J. P. Jenkins that talks about the turmoil in the Eastern Empire because of supposed doctrinal disputes but really more about who would be the power in the church.

Had Theodosius II not fallen off his friggin' horse we might not be putting up with any of this trinity crap we have today. Anyway, I highly recommend the book.

[E.P. Grondine]

I am working on a guide book to ruins here in Ohio, but while I am waiting on a pdf download -

Returning to Lullsingstone Villa:
ww.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/lullingstone-roman-villa/history/research/#fn 8

Do either of you know if the Britons were using outhouses during these times, or whether they used indoor closet furniture and chamber pots,
then distributing the contents a fertilizer?

If they used outhouses, they would be a good place to look for written materials (and DNA.)
So would wells. Certainly they must have had wells, didn't they?

whoo boy - "The possible Gnostic elements identified by Perring[8] that indicate that there are issues not only regarding the relationship of paganism and Christianity, but also with regard to the nature of the Christian belief represented."

Based on Mesoamerican parallels , one may very well expect a local adaptation, a hybrid of Pauline Christianity with Druidism, in other words, say, Pelagianism.

Simon, I was surprised by your comment on Patrick and the Druids - this is a matter of intense study for some people
(most definitely not me, as one controversy at a time is more than enough, thank you).
see:
https://www.saintpatrickcentre.com/hist ... 88c1e-32ff

An interesting series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK5WrCseFYI
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f21eVcY3pw (this fellow from Oxford could deconstruct The Life of Columba to its sources)

[Simon21]

Re: Roman DNA
Postby Minimalist » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:55 am

Agreed and the date of 476 when Odoacer deposed the last Western Roman emperor is merely a convenience. The demise of the Western Empire was a long, drawn out process. They got a brief break with the victory over the Huns at the Catalaunian Plains but in fairness there were probably as many if not more Visigoths under Theodoric present. That was merely 25 years before the official end of the Empire. The situation sort of reminds me of the end of the USSR. It was a charade and all someone had to do was kick the door in.

There is an interesting bit in Procopius where he talks about some people in Gaul (?) who on occasion dressed themselves up in Roman army gear and still paraded before the standards even though the pay and other accroutments of Empire were long gone.

I will certainly look up the Jesus wars thanks for the recommend. In return there is the recent "Darkening Age" by Catherin Nixey - a little glib but good generally

[Simon21]

I am working on a guide book to ruins here in Ohio, but while I am waiting on a pdf download -

Returning to Lullsingstone Villa:
ww.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/lullingstone-roman-villa/history/research/#fn 8

A fascinating and important site. Though not to one individual who posts here who claimed it was less interesting than 26 paleolithic axes - if that makes any sense.

Do either of you know if the Britons were using outhouses during these times, or whether they used indoor closet furniture and chamber pots,
then distributing the contents a fertilizer?

Don't know for certain but probably a variety of means. Dug heaps cerrtainly. Roman era toilets have been discovered on the Wall.

If they used outhouses, they would be a good place to look for written materials (and DNA.)
So would wells. Certainly they must have had wells, didn't they?

Most shrines were attached to wells and springs - the great shrine at Bath has yielded all sorts of material including coins and the remains of animal sacrifices.

whoo boy - "The possible Gnostic elements identified by Perring[8] that indicate that there are issues not only regarding the relationship of paganism and Christianity, but also with regard to the nature of the Christian belief represented."

Quite

Based on Mesoamerican parallels , one may very well expect a local adaptation, a hybrid of Pauline Christianity with Druidism, in other words, say, Pelagianism.

Well it was the Irish who came up with the idea of personal confession and apparently the celibate priesthood. St Synesius etc were married.

Simon, I was surprised by your comment on Patrick and the Druids - this is a matter of intense study for some people
(most definitely not me, as one controversy at a time is more than enough, thank you).
see:
https://www.saintpatrickcentre.com/hist ... 88c1e-32ff

Unfortunately no one knows much about the Druids since nothing much was written down or if it was it was lost.

t is important to undeerstand that St Patrick did not go to Ireland on his tod. He was made bishop (presumably so he could ordain clergy) but by whom? Other bishops obviously. But to what end? Bishops are not supposed to wander around outside their diocese, was this a radical new plan by the British church? Was there already a diocese in Ireland? Patrick speaks of being kidnapped along with many thousands. Were these thousands christians? And who gave him all the money he speaks of?

And of course why convert the Irish, but not the Anglo-Saxons? As St Augustine and Bede both asked?

[E.P. Grondine]

Well Simon, yet nother download so...

A fascinating and important site. Though not to one individual who posts here who claimed it was less interesting than 26 paleolithic axes - if that makes any sense.

Ye, and since it is identified you work the hell out of it.
Aside from the items mentioned earlier, I suspect that there is little co-ordination with the metal detectorists,
so no organized are sweeps for related structures.

Everyone has their own interests.
I myself would rather e troweling through tsunami deposits on Crete.

Don't know for certain but probably a variety of means. Dung heaps cerrtainly. Roman era toilets have been discovered on the Wall.

If you have chamber pots, then most likely you had closets in high status swellings.
Check Herculanium and Pompei.

Most shrines were attached to wells and springs - the great shrine at Bath has yielded all sorts of material including coins and the remains of animal sacrifices.

So were there wells at Lullingsone?
If so, they should have shown up in the surface surveys.

Well it was the Irish who came up with the idea of personal confession and apparently the celibate priesthood. St Synesius etc were married.

I have never taken a look at monasticism, nor church practices in detail.

Unfortunately no one knows much about the Druids since nothing much was written down or if it was it was lost.

There is another problem - Some of the materials which survived are likely misunderstood.

It is important to undeerstand that St Patrick did not go to Ireland on his tod.
He was made bishop (presumably so he could ordain clergy) but by whom?
Other bishops obviously. But to what end?
Bishops are not supposed to wander around outside their diocese, was this a radical new plan by the British church?
Was there already a diocese in Ireland?
Patrick speaks of being kidnapped along with many thousands. Were these thousands christians?
And who gave him all the money he speaks of?

And of course why convert the Irish, but not the Anglo-Saxons? As St Augustine and Bede both asked?

All very good questions - the excavations at that ring fort are likely to answer some of them.

Your line of attack is not the route I would use -
Start with place names, locatives, ethnics, and the analysis of those ethnics' leaders
(like what was done with the Welsh records, but work with Picts instead.)
Deconstruct the Saints' lives to their sources -
start with Adomnan's LIfe of Columba,
move on to the Prophatio Merlini.

[Simon21]

If you have chamber pots, then most likely you had closets in high status swellings.
Check Herculanium and Pompei.

Well Lullinstone is near a river so one imagines this would have played a role in waste disposal.

It had a well and a bath house so water was not a problem

I have never taken a look at monasticism, nor church practices in detail.

It has its importance. First off it is presumed that monasticism appealed to the Irish as it reflected the structure of their society. And of course some (very little) of their writing reflects earlier periods. For example one list of sins and penances describes the penalty for conducting pagans to prey on the fathful. Opinion seems to be that this is an early reference to the Saxons.

Unfortunately no one knows much about the Druids since nothing much was written down or if it was it was lost.

There is another problem - Some of the materials which survived are likely misunderstood.

Your line of attack is not the route I would use -
Start with place names, locatives, ethnics, and the analysis of those ethnics' leaders

There has been a lot of work done on place names and the King lists. Eilert Eckwall, Margaret Gelling etc. Getting records is the difficulty.

Interstingly the first king of Wessex is called Ceredic - a brittonic name

Equally interstingly Magnus Maximus is cited as the progenitor in a number of Welsh king lists - though Dumville says this is only because he is the only figure mentioned in Gildas and the compilers of the lists wanted to get a Roman into the story. A recent interpretation thugh claims he abandoned northern Britain and estblaished the Saxons as foederati to combat the picts and Irish and this is how the archaeological evidence shows the Saxons penetrating to the heart of the country so quickly, they were posted there.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi simon -

I am half a world away, intensely working through far different materials,
and my poor Latin was pretty well wiped out by my stroke.
But I seem to remember that Reeve's translation of the Life of Columba was available online,
and if you want to take a crack at deconstructing it,
and retrieving the Annals that were used in its construction, please do.
I put such work at the level of that fellow from Oxford who appeared in that video,
but why not take a go at it?
There is an easy difference between "angels" and "angles".

My view at the time of my essay was that it was written to replace the earlier Life of Columba, which showed "Pelagian tendencies".

[Minimalist]

they did not storm the city.

If you read Livy, particularly the books dealing with the Second Punic War, you'll see that most cities were taken by stealth and treachery rather than direct attack. The Visigoths had begun attacking Rome in 408 and with a couple of breaks were still at it in 410 despite various attempts to buy them off. The Visigoths did relatively little physical damage. They did steal virtually everything that wasn't nailed down. In that they remind me of modern republicans.

I've never seen any compelling argument for military strength remaining in the West after 476. The East? Different story but the East had the resources that the West did not. One of Constantine's bigger errors.

[Simon21]

they did not storm the city.

If you read Livy, particularly the books dealing with the Second Punic War, you'll see that most cities were taken by stealth and treachery rather than direct attack. The Visigoths had begun attacking Rome in 408 and with a couple of breaks were still at it in 410 despite various attempts to buy them off. The Visigoths did relatively little physical damage. They did steal virtually everything that wasn't nailed down. In that they remind me of modern republicans.

I've never seen any compelling argument for military strength remaining in the West after 476. The East? Different story but the East had the resources that the West did not. One of Constantine's bigger errors.

Possibly though he did ensure the survival of the East for some considerable time. After 476, the fifth century the Western empire had defintely gone as a political entity anbd as Peter Brown describes local magnates took over.

[Minimalist]

BTW, if you can't find that book, I have an electronic copy I can email to you.

[Simon21]

BTW, if you can't find that book, I have an electronic copy I can email to you.

Very kind but I got a copy the say you recomended it and am reading it now.

[Minimalist]

Good stuff. I love the gangs of felonious monks!

[Simon21]

Good stuff. I love the gangs of felonious monks!

Sadly mine is a hard copy signed by Catherine so I can't make it widely available.