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Ancient Boating
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:11 pm
by Cognito
The following 700,000 year old discovery on Luzon in the Philippines is interesting since it screams
H. erectus and boats. See:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/201 ... s-science/
Even in the depths of each glaciation when sea levels were 120-130 meters lower, the channels that needed to be crossed were still a maritime barrier. Reference the following maps of the area:
http://sciox.org/maps-of-pleistocene-se ... -asia.html#
Boats, rafts, whatever it took to get there. These people had a level of sophistication.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:42 pm
by circumspice
LMAO!!!
They are still touting the tsunami/vegetation mat 'explanation' for HE's arrival in the Philippines...
Perhaps large animals and the butchers' ancestors accidentally rode to Luzon on floating masses of mud and aquatic plants, torn off coastlines by large storms. Regional tsunamis may have also washed some terrified H. erectus out to sea. As they clung to floating debris, they may have inadvertently island-hopped.
“Water dispersal by H. erectus is accidental—there's no Manifest Destiny, there's no plot,” says Russell Ciochon, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Iowa at Iowa City.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:33 am
by E.P. Grondine
Now we get down to the details.
A raft wold have required either rope or leather straps to tie the logs together.
If they used ropes, what would show up in the archaeological record?
If they used straps, then you would find stone tools for cutting up the hides in strips.
On the other hand, a dugout requires only an axe and fire to make.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:27 am
by circumspice
E.P. Grondine wrote:Now we get down to the details.
A raft wold have required either rope or leather straps to tie the logs together.
If they used ropes, what would show up in the archaeological record?
If they used straps, then you would find stone tools for cutting up the hides in strips.
On the other hand, a dugout requires only an axe and fire to make.
More accurately, it would require cordage. Cordage is quickly & easily made with the fibers extracted from the stems of many kinds of plants. I watched a video of an anthropologist demonstrating just how quick & easy it was to make cordage. In essence, the process was almost identical to the process of making wool yarn, except there was no spindle. He twisted the fibers by rolling them against his leg, adding fibers to lengthen the cord as he was making it. He made a usable amount of cord in mere minutes. Then he demonstrated how to ply the cordage into thicker cordage using no tools at all, just his hands.
Rafts are probably easier & quicker to build, requiring much smaller trees.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:53 am
by Minimalist
Boats, rafts, whatever it took to get there. These people had a level of sophistication.
Exactly, Cogs. The vegetation mat crowd simply refuses to admit that HSS is not the only clever hominid on the planet. They do so want to feel special. They are practically religious in their silly outlook.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:41 am
by E.P. Grondine
spice wrote:
Rafts are probably easier & quicker to build, requiring much smaller trees.
They would require cordage. Cordage is quickly & easily made with the fibers extracted from the stems of many kinds of plants. I watched a video of an anthropologist demonstrating just how quick & easy it was to make cordage. In essence, the process was almost identical to the process of making wool yarn, except there was no spindle. He twisted the fibers by rolling them against his leg, adding fibers to lengthen the cord as he was making it. He made a usable amount of cord in mere minutes. Then he demonstrated how to ply the cordage into thicker cordage using no tools at all, just his hands.
Cordage might have been used for snares. Then you have bags and lightweight clothing.
But you have to know your knots.
I don know how this might be definitively show by the archaeological record.
Small game bones with fractures?
Clusters of things carried?
Hand axe, fire, cordage...
On the other hand, people were probably already using fallen logs to ford rivers.
Then you simply dig down into them with your existing axe and fire to make a dugout.
As more sites are found, excavated, and recorded,
Someday in the future we'll have some answers.
Until then, it will simply be an intellectual exercise in speculation.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 1:09 pm
by circumspice
While the use of fire by early human ancestors is well documented & dates back more than 1 million years, the control of fire is not. Making a dugout canoe using fire implies a mastery of fire that is simply not evidenced in the archaeological record for that approximate time frame. Do you know of the K.I.S.S. principle? Don't make something unnecessarily more complex than it needs to be. The expenditure of time & effort is greater for building a dugout canoe. That expenditure is not paid back with a corresponding benefit. Dugouts need larger trees, more time & effort to build. They won't carry as much as a raft will. Rafts are down & dirty, quick & easy. And, once you get to your destination, you can repurpose those logs & cordage. A hollowed out log or tree trunk can't be used for anything else except a canoe or maybe a coffin. You've got to look at the possible applications & the practicalities.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:38 pm
by kbs2244
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:57 pm
by circumspice
Interesting article. Thanks for the link.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:45 am
by circumspice
E.P. Grondine wrote:Now we get down to the details.
A raft wold have required either rope or leather straps to tie the logs together.
If they used ropes, what would show up in the archaeological record?
If they used straps, then you would find stone tools for cutting up the hides in strips.
On the other hand, a dugout requires only an axe and fire to make.
That question is fairly easy to answer EP. If they used rope made from cordage they would have probably used a device made of wood or bone. It would have had two or more holes with carved slanted lines inside the holes. They would then pull two or more pieces of cordage through this device to ply the cordage into rope. The slanted lines cause the cordage to twist as it is being pulled through, aiding the plying. If they used cordage to make nets & open weave bags, there would have been bone, ivory or antler needles suitable for creating an open weave fabric suitable for nets & net type bags. So far, such items haven't been found in the same time frame so it is probable that they used only simple cordage that was hand plyed. Google 'How to make cordage'. There are lots of videos showing how to make cordage on YouTube. It's pretty impressive how it's done with readily available materials & the person's hands & legs only, no tools involved at all.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:55 pm
by Simon21
There may be something to the Tsunami theory. I beleive in the United States in the 19th century a young girl and her very annoying dog (given a swahili name for some unknown reason) were swept up in a tornado and landed somewhere mysterious. A film was made of it featuring, again for reasons known only to god, a young actress who was required to compress her bust. If it works for tornadoes in Arkansas or wherever why not for Tsunamis, both are about as likely.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by Cognito
Simon21 wrote:If it works for tornadoes in Arkansas or wherever why not for Tsunamis, both are about as likely.
Because one girl and her dog will not populate a new area; tornado, tsunami or otherwise.
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:08 am
by circumspice
Simon21 wrote:There may be something to the Tsunami theory. I beleive in the United States in the 19th century a young girl and her very annoying dog (given a swahili name for some unknown reason) were swept up in a tornado and landed somewhere mysterious. A film was made of it featuring, again for reasons known only to god, a young actress who was required to compress her bust. If it works for tornadoes in Arkansas or wherever why not for Tsunamis, both are about as likely.
Arkansas? Dorothy told Toto that she didn't think they were in Kansas anymore...
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:49 am
by Simon21
I think Kansas is right. Wherever it was I remember being told how curious it was that a girl in this area and time should know swahili - I am speaking of decades ago. What is intersting is that Swahili is of course spoken on the east Coast of Africa and as I understand it most africans taken to America spoke West Coast languages.
Of course things are never completely clear cut so it is possible one presumes that some speakers did end up there and a bit of their language survived. I
Re: Ancient Boating
Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:28 pm
by circumspice
Simon21 wrote:I think Kansas is right. Wherever it was I remember being told how curious it was that a girl in this area and time should know swahili - I am speaking of decades ago. What is intersting is that Swahili is of course spoken on the east Coast of Africa and as I understand it most africans taken to America spoke West Coast languages.
Of course things are never completely clear cut so it is possible one presumes that some speakers did end up there and a bit of their language survived. I
Um... You do know that Dorothy is a fictional character, right? What area & what time? Huh? The book titled The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was published in 1900. Only the author, L. Frank Baum, would have known for certain why the fictional dog was named Toto. He was a prolific writer, writing many books, plays & poems. Why does the word Toto need to be considered Swahili? It could have been just a made up word. The author wrote primarily fantasy type fiction. Does everything need to be dissected with a view to find something that appears to be out of whack? What next? Out of place artifacts? There's even an acronym for that: OOPA...