The Bones Will Tell?

[circumspice]

Woo-hoo!

I found this article using the encyclopedia or dictionary method... You know... You read an entry in an encyclopedia or a dictionary & for some reason you end up reading the entries that came before or after the entry you looked up...

Anywho... This article is about analyzing unidentifiable bone fragments found in the Denisova cave system. Most of the bone fragments are of animals that shared the landscape with ancient hominins in the distant past. But... They are now able to discern which fragments are human & which are animal by detecting the collagen present in the bone fragments. By identifying the protein peptides in the sample they are able to assign a species. In doing so, they have identified one new human specimen which was reported as a first generation hybrid of a Neanderthal & a Denisovan. Then, continuing the process, they have identified 4 more specimens...

WOOT!!!

This is an up to date article from 20 Sept 2018, yesterday...


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06763-w

Enjoy!

[Minimalist]

Impressive!

[Simon21]

Interesting, though I have no idea what a Denisovian might be. It is astonishing what bones can reveal. We have this https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/gr ... -1-2576700 followed by this
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/si ... -1-9138183.

It would help if we could tell whether the decapitations happened before or after death. Some say this means they were executed criminals, but they would hardly have been formally buried. It is said that the Vatican cannot be built on St Peter's tomb, as (if he existed) St Peter's remains would have been thrown into the Tiber or on a rubbish heap as a criminal. Others claim they are gladiators, but surely the same consideration applies.

Alice Roberts and others claim it is related to the Celtic cult of the severed head. Others that it is good way of preventing Zombies.

[circumspice]

A Denisovan is a previously unidentified member of the Homo genus. They are closely related to & roughly contemporary with our species. They were unidentified until recently because of the paucity of the fossil record regarding hominins. The Denisovans would never have been identified as a separate species if DNA testing hadn't been performed on some teeth & a tiny finger bone. Morphologically speaking, they most closely resemble Neanderthals. (tooth morphology) The identification was made at the Max Planck DNA labs.

On the other hand, the remains that you mentioned were all clearly recognized & identified as Roman from the onset of their discovery. I fail to see what those articles have to do with a new & innovative method of species identification. This thread doesn't concern Late Roman Era remains in England... It's not all about England in the Roman Era... Can we please try to keep on topic?

[Minimalist]

but surely the same consideration applies.

No, gladiators were far more honorable than xtians.

Proper burial was very important to the Romans, and gladiators frequently formed "funeral clubs" to ensure that they would receive a proper burial if they died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum ... a_of_Death

[Simon21]

A Denisovan is a previously unidentified member of the Homo genus. They are closely related to & roughly contemporary with our species. They were unidentified until recently because of the paucity of the fossil record regarding hominins. The Denisovans would never have been identified as a separate species if DNA testing hadn't been performed on some teeth & a tiny finger bone. Morphologically speaking, they most closely resemble Neanderthals. (tooth morphology) The identification was made at the Max Planck DNA labs.

On the other hand, the remains that you mentioned were all clearly recognized & identified as Roman from the onset of their discovery. I fail to see what those articles have to do with a new & innovative method of species identification. This thread doesn't concern Late Roman Era remains in England... It's not all about England in the Roman Era... Can we please try to keep on topic?

" It's not all about England in the Roman Era" Never said it was, but these are bones and they do "tell".

And I have never been clear what precisely we mean by "species" when it comes to human beings.

[Simon21]

but surely the same consideration applies.

No, gladiators were far more honorable than xtians.

Proper burial was very important to the Romans, and gladiators frequently formed "funeral clubs" to ensure that they would receive a proper burial if they died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum ... a_of_Death

You do know that we still do not know what the Colosseum was for. Games were certainly staged there, but as Mary Beard points out ( https://www.theguardian.com/books/2005/ ... anreview10) these hardly occupied its entire time.

True there were gladiator funeral clubs, but remember (as Beard points out) we over ritualise these things. We use the term very loosely. Beard points out that many of those killed may simply have been criminals etc given a cheap sword and funny costume and told to have a go.

Anyway as mentioned this is off topic.

[MichelleH]

but surely the same consideration applies.

No, gladiators were far more honorable than xtians.

Proper burial was very important to the Romans, and gladiators frequently formed "funeral clubs" to ensure that they would receive a proper burial if they died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum ... a_of_Death

You do know that we still do not know what the Colosseum was for. Games were certainly staged there, but as Mary Beard points out ( https://www.theguardian.com/books/2005/ ... anreview10) these hardly occupied its entire time.

True there were gladiator funeral clubs, but remember (as Beard points out) we over ritualise these things. We use the term very loosely. Beard points out that many of those killed may simply have been criminals etc given a cheap sword and funny costume and told to have a go.

Anyway as mentioned this is off topic.

The fun thing about archaeology is each new find can turn a previous find on it's collective head......and there is still so very much to discover.

[circumspice]

Hear, Hear Michelle!

That's why I'm so excited about ZoomS & the ability to clearly identify what was once unidentifiable bone fragments. Just imagine the possibilities... How many other species of hominins will this help discover?

Could we possibly live in a better time? New discoveries are coming at a breathtaking pace... Old questions are being answered, new questions are arising... We're getting a better, higher resolution picture of human evolution as new technology comes into play... I'm glad that I haven't lost my sense of wonder. I feel like a kid in a candy store!!!

Now researchers are going to dig through boxes of unimpressive specimens in dusty storage rooms... Specimens that came from iconic sites... And those unimpressive specimens hold the possibility of either clarifying an old question or opening up a whole new discovery...

I hope to live long enough to see many, many new discoveries.

[Minimalist]

these hardly occupied its entire time.

You mean like football stadiums today?

[Simon21]

these hardly occupied its entire time.

You mean like football stadiums today?

Possibly - how can we tell? Beard thinks that the numbers of gladiators and those who died in the arena generally have been widly exagerated by early christians trying to emphasise the horrors of pagan Rome. She points out the logistics of controlling over 10,000 men (reputedly) and beasts innumerable are practically unbelievable.

[MichelleH]

Hear, Hear Michelle!

That's why I'm so excited about ZoomS & the ability to clearly identify what was once unidentifiable bone fragments. Just imagine the possibilities... How many other species of hominins will this help discover?

Could we possibly live in a better time? New discoveries are coming at a breathtaking pace... Old questions are being answered, new questions are arising... We're getting a better, higher resolution picture of human evolution as new technology comes into play... I'm glad that I haven't lost my sense of wonder. I feel like a kid in a candy store!!!

Now researchers are going to dig through boxes of unimpressive specimens in dusty storage rooms... Specimens that came from iconic sites... And those unimpressive specimens hold the possibility of either clarifying an old question or opening up a whole new discovery...

I hope to live long enough to see many, many new discoveries.

Circ......and there in lies my joy.....imagine what is still under water!

[Minimalist]

Oh, the numbers are dead are absurdly inflated. Trained gladiators were far to expensive to slaughter willy-nilly. Most of the deaths were criminals who were fighting against each other or animals. But even the wealthy patrons who sponsored the games had to give the crowd some blood on occasion. Of course, there was always the chance of being wounded in combat and dying of the resulting infection. Sacrificing pigeons to Aesclapius only went so far.

And, as Candida Moss has made clear in The Myth of Persecution, the number of xtians in the arena was largely a later mythic tale invented to cover their own crimes against heretics and pagans.

[Simon21]

Hear, Hear Michelle!

That's why I'm so excited about ZoomS & the ability to clearly identify what was once unidentifiable bone fragments. Just imagine the possibilities... How many other species of hominins will this help discover?

Could we possibly live in a better time? New discoveries are coming at a breathtaking pace... Old questions are being answered, new questions are arising... We're getting a better, higher resolution picture of human evolution as new technology comes into play... I'm glad that I haven't lost my sense of wonder. I feel like a kid in a candy store!!!

Now researchers are going to dig through boxes of unimpressive specimens in dusty storage rooms... Specimens that came from iconic sites... And those unimpressive specimens hold the possibility of either clarifying an old question or opening up a whole new discovery...

I hope to live long enough to see many, many new discoveries.

Circ......and there in lies my joy.....imagine what is still under water!

Disagree - one bloody species has caused trouble enough imagine if there were several.

[Simon21]

Oh, the numbers are dead are absurdly inflated. Trained gladiators were far to expensive to slaughter willy-nilly. Most of the deaths were criminals who were fighting against each other or animals. But even the wealthy patrons who sponsored the games had to give the crowd some blood on occasion. Of course, there was always the chance of being wounded in combat and dying of the resulting infection. Sacrificing pigeons to Aesclapius only went so far.

And, as Candida Moss has made clear in The Myth of Persecution, the number of xtians in the arena was largely a later mythic tale invented to cover their own crimes against heretics and pagans.

All true. Incidentally I am informed the football stadium analogy is false. The MCG (all bow at the mention of the holy MCG) ands SCG are apparently used for football in Winter and cricket in Summer, so they are always used.