Richard and Daybrown - I am trying to intently follow this, punctuated by flurries of research and I am confused. While I agree some of the examples of cave art are magnificent I am having trouble associating any of these works to HN activity. I am coming up with zero.
What am I missing here?
Neanderthal News
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
i dont claim HNS did Altimira, just their hybrid descendants. When two different cultures meet, the effects of the artistic sensibility changes take a while, and build over time.
Same deal with the Aryans. Caucasoid, Alpine, & Semetic skulls were found at Chatal Hoyuk. The place drew people who were, as we now say, 'early adapters'. The macho guys who were really into hunting didnt care for it. Life as a farmer was just toooooo boring.
But others saw the economic side, of how much more food per man hour resulted. Likewise, the paleolithic tribe that had strong Neanderthal hunks, who already knew the territory, the habits of the fauna, and also had Cro Magnons with new weapons technology to kill more safely, did better than everyone else. And besides having some HNS hunks to haul the food back to the village... of huts built by HSS women was also more *adaptive*.
Any group that could draw on both HNS and HSS gene pools had a distinct advantage over every group that didnt. And that created the new mind frame that in turn created the new art.
AGAIN. Let me try to be clear, I did not say the art was created by Neanderthals, but the *hybrids*. Both as individuals and as cultures. We see the same thing today. people in other cultures picking up on a Western art, but then going off in a new direction with it.
Same deal with the Aryans. Caucasoid, Alpine, & Semetic skulls were found at Chatal Hoyuk. The place drew people who were, as we now say, 'early adapters'. The macho guys who were really into hunting didnt care for it. Life as a farmer was just toooooo boring.
But others saw the economic side, of how much more food per man hour resulted. Likewise, the paleolithic tribe that had strong Neanderthal hunks, who already knew the territory, the habits of the fauna, and also had Cro Magnons with new weapons technology to kill more safely, did better than everyone else. And besides having some HNS hunks to haul the food back to the village... of huts built by HSS women was also more *adaptive*.
Any group that could draw on both HNS and HSS gene pools had a distinct advantage over every group that didnt. And that created the new mind frame that in turn created the new art.
AGAIN. Let me try to be clear, I did not say the art was created by Neanderthals, but the *hybrids*. Both as individuals and as cultures. We see the same thing today. people in other cultures picking up on a Western art, but then going off in a new direction with it.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
I almost view the incursion of Cro Magnons into Neanderthal territory as a group of trade merchants heading into a new market with a captive audience and no competition. Of course, the real estate boom came later as the kids were born.But others saw the economic side, of how much more food per man hour resulted. Likewise, the paleolithic tribe that had strong Neanderthal hunks, who already knew the territory, the habits of the fauna, and also had Cro Magnons with new weapons technology to kill more safely, did better than everyone else. And besides having some HNS hunks to haul the food back to the village... of huts built by HSS women was also more *adaptive*.
Moving into a new territory the first thing I would do is scout out the area and pick up a few interpreters (ie Neanderthals). The next step is to visit and establish myself by presenting a few gifts and trading with the locals. The sales hut comes soon after that. If I can trade shiny trinkets for dried mammoth meat, ivory and pelts I have my new product line established. If they're having a row with the next group over the hill, I can trade technology. As DB pointed out, I can even hire a few locals to transport tons of goods back to my tribe for a pittance. Hell, they can even be recruited to fight battles for me!
Natural selection favors the paranoid
So...
We have “pre-humans” painting their bodies for some reason, and going on trading trips to take advantage of the “local yokels.”
That implies a whole lot of “Cognitive” ability.
And then suddenly these HS type guys show up.
They think the red body paint thing is kind of neat, but some things need to change.
Like we should be at the top.
Do I see a predecessor of the Goths moving in on the northern Roman provinces?
“You people just keep doing what you have been doing. Just pay us those taxes instead of them.”
We have “pre-humans” painting their bodies for some reason, and going on trading trips to take advantage of the “local yokels.”
That implies a whole lot of “Cognitive” ability.
And then suddenly these HS type guys show up.
They think the red body paint thing is kind of neat, but some things need to change.
Like we should be at the top.
Do I see a predecessor of the Goths moving in on the northern Roman provinces?
“You people just keep doing what you have been doing. Just pay us those taxes instead of them.”
The last non-Christian emperor, "Julian the Apostate" had this to say about his governorship of Gaul:"Was it possible for the disciple of Plato and Aristotle to act otherwise than I have done? Could I abandon the unhappy subjects intrusted to my care? Was I not called upon to defend them from the repeated injuries of these unfeeling robbers? A tribune who deserts his post is punished with death, and deprived of the honours of burial. With what justice could I pronounce his sentence, if, in the hour of danger, I myself neglected a duty far more sacred and far more important? God has placed me in this elevated post; his providence will guard and support me. Should I be condemned to suffer, I shall derive comfort from the testimony of a pure and upright conscience. Would to Heaven that I still possessed a counsellor like Sallust ! If they think proper to send me a successor, I shall submit without reluctance; and had much rather improve the short opportunity of doing good, than enjoy. a long and lasting impunity of evil."
The Goths were only able to move because of the corruption of the Roman system, which Julian tried to reform, but alas, he died in battle after only 14 months, and then it was back to the usual hypocritical Christian rulers.
Which we see are still in power, and whose corruption risk collapse of the entire system.
You have to plow thru several hundred years of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" to find this singular example of honorable leadership, the vast majority of his work, and indeed so much of history written since, on the activities of the warrior class. You get the idea that invasion, such as into Europe in the paleolithic was led by mighty warriors.
But if we look carefully at the obscure historical record, the big mass movements have not been warriors, but *refugees*. There's a more powerful case to be made that those who moved into Europe were not the warriors from the Levant, but the *losers*. And the winners are still in the Levant, and just as aggressive as they have always been.
Any look at the graves reveals that women died sooner. Why? Not in battle, certainly. The number buried with the neonate still in them is a clue. Many of the others died of infection after childbirth, which mite have been effectively dealt with by witches, but quite often we see the warriors killed all the witches, correctly seeing them as another power base, but not realizing that doing so wiped out their own posterity.
The stark contrast to this is seen in the graveyard near Varna Bulgaria. 5000+ years old, in which we see that the men averaged into their late 30's and the women into their early 40's, a longevity not seen again until better hygene developed in the late 19th century.
But the other thing to realize, is that at the time, Cucuteni witches ran things. They did not promote warfare because they had no interest in acquiring more women for harems. As a result, whereas the warrior cultures show us lots of widows in the graveyards because so many men died on the battle field, here there are equal numbers of men & women.
This cosmological, political, and economic domination by women, which is so well documented in descendant cultures, went way back into the Stone age, all the way to Neanderthal, and the imagery of obese fecund women.Remember, there were only seven mitochondrial lines in Europe, and the natural ruler of the clan was their own grandmother who produced a set of daughters, each of which could pop a kid out every year.
The Goths were only able to move because of the corruption of the Roman system, which Julian tried to reform, but alas, he died in battle after only 14 months, and then it was back to the usual hypocritical Christian rulers.
Which we see are still in power, and whose corruption risk collapse of the entire system.
You have to plow thru several hundred years of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" to find this singular example of honorable leadership, the vast majority of his work, and indeed so much of history written since, on the activities of the warrior class. You get the idea that invasion, such as into Europe in the paleolithic was led by mighty warriors.
But if we look carefully at the obscure historical record, the big mass movements have not been warriors, but *refugees*. There's a more powerful case to be made that those who moved into Europe were not the warriors from the Levant, but the *losers*. And the winners are still in the Levant, and just as aggressive as they have always been.
Any look at the graves reveals that women died sooner. Why? Not in battle, certainly. The number buried with the neonate still in them is a clue. Many of the others died of infection after childbirth, which mite have been effectively dealt with by witches, but quite often we see the warriors killed all the witches, correctly seeing them as another power base, but not realizing that doing so wiped out their own posterity.
The stark contrast to this is seen in the graveyard near Varna Bulgaria. 5000+ years old, in which we see that the men averaged into their late 30's and the women into their early 40's, a longevity not seen again until better hygene developed in the late 19th century.
But the other thing to realize, is that at the time, Cucuteni witches ran things. They did not promote warfare because they had no interest in acquiring more women for harems. As a result, whereas the warrior cultures show us lots of widows in the graveyards because so many men died on the battle field, here there are equal numbers of men & women.
This cosmological, political, and economic domination by women, which is so well documented in descendant cultures, went way back into the Stone age, all the way to Neanderthal, and the imagery of obese fecund women.Remember, there were only seven mitochondrial lines in Europe, and the natural ruler of the clan was their own grandmother who produced a set of daughters, each of which could pop a kid out every year.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
language gene found in Neanderthals
New article finds the gene associated with language in Neanderthals. Perhaps they discussed the art they were creating?
Hope this cite works.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/ ... erthal.htm
Hope this cite works.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/ ... erthal.htm
FOXP2 Gene
Excellent article, Roxanne. From a different article courtesy of National Geographic:
"Krause and colleagues concluded that modern humans' version of FOXP2 must have arisen sometime before our lineage split from Neandertals', about 300,000 to 400,000 years ago."
Source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -gene.html
So it appears that another false assumption about HNs is in the process of crumbling. More importantly, the FOXP2 gene was around at up to 400,000 years ago, the approximate time that HN and HS diverged, ostensibly from HE or some other noteworthy ancestor. I think I'll go LMAO!
That 400,000 years ago number is very interesting since it includes the date of those javelins discovered in Germany and villages discovered in North Central Africa. Fairly difficult to pull off either of those improvements in the Homo condition without speech.
"Krause and colleagues concluded that modern humans' version of FOXP2 must have arisen sometime before our lineage split from Neandertals', about 300,000 to 400,000 years ago."
Source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -gene.html
So it appears that another false assumption about HNs is in the process of crumbling. More importantly, the FOXP2 gene was around at up to 400,000 years ago, the approximate time that HN and HS diverged, ostensibly from HE or some other noteworthy ancestor. I think I'll go LMAO!
That 400,000 years ago number is very interesting since it includes the date of those javelins discovered in Germany and villages discovered in North Central Africa. Fairly difficult to pull off either of those improvements in the Homo condition without speech.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
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And now for the cold water -
FOX2P is a transcriptor factor which effects the way genes are expressed but we don't know which genes or how many. All we know is it plays a role in the ability of anatomical structures to control micro-movements such as those required for effective speech. People with defective or missing FOX2P can learn to speak - just not very well.
It should also be noted that mice have FOX2p and do not speak a language. Many other factors are required for language development and cognition including significant changes in the structures of the larynx.
See details here:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/language ... 02456.html
FOX2P is a transcriptor factor which effects the way genes are expressed but we don't know which genes or how many. All we know is it plays a role in the ability of anatomical structures to control micro-movements such as those required for effective speech. People with defective or missing FOX2P can learn to speak - just not very well.
It should also be noted that mice have FOX2p and do not speak a language. Many other factors are required for language development and cognition including significant changes in the structures of the larynx.
See details here:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/language ... 02456.html
FOX2P
And now to pour warm water back over the cold water -
Jianzhi Zhang is a geneticist at the University of Michigan who was also not involved in the research.
He was surprised by the new findings, since earlier genetic studies suggested the Neandertal version of the gene would be different.
"It would be interesting to look for other genetic changes required for speech and put them in order of when they happened during human evolution," Zhang said.
"It would then be possible to tell how well each extinct hominid species spoke."
Source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ene_2.html
Simply possessing a FOX2P that looks just like HS doesn't mean that HN spoke, but it's opened up a new area of exploration that was thought closed only yesterday. I wouldn't be surprised to find rudimentary forms of speech at 400,000 years ago ... nothing complex, but complex enough to pass on simple information to progeny and others.
Jianzhi Zhang is a geneticist at the University of Michigan who was also not involved in the research.
He was surprised by the new findings, since earlier genetic studies suggested the Neandertal version of the gene would be different.
"It would be interesting to look for other genetic changes required for speech and put them in order of when they happened during human evolution," Zhang said.
"It would then be possible to tell how well each extinct hominid species spoke."
Source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ene_2.html
Simply possessing a FOX2P that looks just like HS doesn't mean that HN spoke, but it's opened up a new area of exploration that was thought closed only yesterday. I wouldn't be surprised to find rudimentary forms of speech at 400,000 years ago ... nothing complex, but complex enough to pass on simple information to progeny and others.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
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Re: FOX2P
I wouldn't be surprised either. If HN had the necessary equipment anatomically, it is more than certain he could possess some form of speech. My point is, news reporters sensationalize these discoveries for the sake of the story. We are supposed to be a little more discriminating about these reports since I think everyone here is a cut above the average TV watching, beer guzzling, mindless dimwit who needs others to tell him what to believe. (sorry if I stepped on a toe or two with my stereotypes - and I don't mean to put on any airs - some of those guys I just described are my best friendsCognito wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find rudimentary forms of speech at 400,000 years ago ... nothing complex, but complex enough to pass on simple information to progeny and others.
).Mindless Dimwits
Then again, the mindless dimwit crowd can be fun. Especially the females!I think everyone here is a cut above the average TV watching, beer guzzling, mindless dimwit who needs others to tell him what to believe.
Yes, I looked for the scientific report but have yet to find it. Here is the reference for someone more adept than myself:
Krause J. et al. Curr. Biol. 17, doi:10.1016/j.cub.2007.10.008
Although news articles clearly promote sales, there are facts to be derived in spite of their stupidity. The FOX2P gene was either mutated to its current form (allowing the development of language) prior to the HN / HS split or there was gene-flow between the two ... Paavo chooses the former argument and he is likely correct. In addition to FOX2P other genes probably interplay in order to promote language. This is a hot area of research right now.
The relevant point is this: without a similar or identical FOX2P gene HN could not possess language at all. With an identical gene, HN might have had the capability for language and the odds would be in favor of it. This discovery gives scientists an area of further study that will move the debate forward since nobody expected the results achieved.
The hypothesis that language only developed 50,000 years ago is crumbling since genetics does not now support it. It never made an sense to me and I am happy to see another paradigm bite the dust since many scientists appear quick to sell ancient people short in the smarts department.
Drop my ass into the Pleistocene around here 20,000 years ago and I'd probably wind lunch meat within the week. And I'm smarter? Dead ain't very smart.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
additional discussion neanderthal speech
New York Times science covered this new findings. Alittle pro and con
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/scien ... h-web.html
the actual sequences:
http://download.current-biology.com/pdf ... 020659.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/scien ... h-web.html
the actual sequences:
http://download.current-biology.com/pdf ... 020659.pdf
http://johnhawks.net/weblog/2007/10/19
Personally, I think the developing news about Microcephalin D allele is more exciting than the Fox2P news, but it all means the same thing.
The genetically pure quasi-religious model of Homo Sapien evolution is full of Neandercooties. The European scientists are going to have a collective stroke. It might only be one more year until Paabo is forced to announce that, in the Garden of Eden, Adam was a Neanderthal.
I love it.
Cogs, I couldn't find the report, but this is Hawks with his explanation of it.The amazing talking Neandertals
This week, Johannes Krause and colleagues from the Max Planck Evolutionary Anthropology institute announced that they had tickled FoxP2 out of two Neandertal specimens from El Sidrón, Spain. The bones were excavated in sterile (clean-cave?) conditions, immediately frozen and then shipped to Leipzig, where extracts were taken in clean-room conditions.
Here's an FAQ about what they found.
Personally, I think the developing news about Microcephalin D allele is more exciting than the Fox2P news, but it all means the same thing.
The genetically pure quasi-religious model of Homo Sapien evolution is full of Neandercooties. The European scientists are going to have a collective stroke. It might only be one more year until Paabo is forced to announce that, in the Garden of Eden, Adam was a Neanderthal.
I love it.
mice/neanderthal
Did you notice that in the Nicholas Wade article that the mice that were implanted with the Fox2 gene developed new neuronal circuits in the brain and made different sorts of vocalizations than reg. mice. I would guess something like "Bring me a beer and some Stilton"
