Archaeologica.org

Beagle wrote:
"In any case, the only place on this planet that one can find native red hair and green eyes is where Neanderthal once lived. The whole wiki article is worth checking out. It's my belief that much of the Neanderthal morphology disappeared within 15,000 years of eastern migration."

I've got red hair, and all my ancestors come from Scotland or Ireland. Not long ago I had my MtDNA done and it is one of the most ancient ones according to the report. The chart from out of Africa shows into Turkey and then straight into the Northern parts of Europe and Viking territory which is not far from Scotland. Certainly would be interesting to live long enough to find out I'm part Neanderthal.

I can't help but wonder what the social impact of that would be if it is proved that the two groups did produce offspring and some of the population today descends from the Neanderthals. That would be interesting.
Donna

Donna, the most northerly county of Scotland is Sutherland, the Norse south land. Into the present day parts of the Norse languages were still in use in the area and it contains far an away the highest percentage of red heads in the UK.
Even your name Donna, the female equivalent of Donald, is a name in gaelic that means variously Great Ruler or King etc.

Neanderthals may well have used some form of language to communicate, although whatever speech they had, it was almost certainly more rudimentary than the language developed by their leaner cousins.

For all these people know, Cicero could have been a Neanderthal.

Digit wrote:Even your name Donna, the female equivalent of Donald, is a name in gaelic that means variously Great Ruler or King etc.

Donna is also Italian/Latin for "woman". Names used to have meaning, today if one is not named for a relative, one is given a popular name. Yesteryear's Johns, James, Roberts, Marys, Sarahs have been replaced by Joshs, Shawns, Ashleys, etc.

As for red, it winds its way through my generations as well. My daughter for example, is auburn red but without light complexion as many seem to have. But I am 10th generation scot-irish from among the frontiersmen of the english colonies before the American revolution. Tracing my genealogy, I have encountered a few neanderthal cousins.

Just a thought about Neanderthals and their origins I would like to ask the board. Is there any possiblity that they were on the same evolutionary path as modern man and something happened because of environment or some weird genetic malfunction due to their environment that caused them to be so different? I know absolutely zero about their origins but it has always seemed to me that since they are so similiar I've often wondered if it was some outside force rather than evolution that caused the physical differences. I guess what I am asking very badly is what is the opinion regarding the Neanderthals as opposed to us? Was it just a physical difference? Or, is that something impossible to know or find out at present?
Donna

Donna wrote:
I've often wondered if it was some outside force rather than evolution that caused the physical differences.

'Outside force' – like climate, availabilty of food, predation, etc. etc. – is also an evolutionary force, Donna. And very important too. Darwin made his case for evolution on the basis that 'his' finches in the Galapagos Islands were different from island to island. They did so because of different conditions on each island.

Climate link as extinction factor for HN debated:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6992721.stm

http://www.nature.com/search/executeSea ... p-1=phrase

Perhaps Min can help me out on this one, but I see a cartoon professor, you know the type, white hair, spectacles, round shouldered, studying the bones of HSN and saying to his students, all obviously HSN, 'we really don't know what happened to them.'
All these papers start from the presumption that HSN is extinct. By the day, almost, more evidence comes forth to support our hybridization. Before burying the corpse perhaps we should make certain that it's dead!

Donna wrote:Just a thought about Neanderthals and their origins I would like to ask the board. Is there any possiblity that they were on the same evolutionary path as modern man and something happened because of environment or some weird genetic malfunction due to their environment that caused them to be so different? I know absolutely zero about their origins but it has always seemed to me that since they are so similiar I've often wondered if it was some outside force rather than evolution that caused the physical differences. I guess what I am asking very badly is what is the opinion regarding the Neanderthals as opposed to us? Was it just a physical difference? Or, is that something impossible to know or find out at present?
Donna

Hi Donna. That's a big question, but in a nutshell, Neanderthal evolved from an earlier human called Homo Heidelbergensis about 240,000 yrs. ago in Europe. Homo Sapien evolved from the same human but in Africa. Neanderthals physical appearance is an adaptation to a northerly ice age environment. He had features that many people believe are still present in modern Europeans.

But the standard textbook innformation on Neanderthal is that he began to go extinct about 45,000 yrs. ago when Homo Sapiens began migrating into Europe. These people were called Cro-Magnon and are thought to have originated in the Levant - an area where Lebanon, Syria and Israel are today. The reasons for this extinction are not understood.

That's the classic explanation. I'm one of those people who think that Neanderthal only did what every species does, and that is evolve. I think that much of the genetic make-up of Neanderthal still thrives in people of European ancestry. I've said many times on this board that Neanderthal and Sapien lived together in the Levant for 20,000 yrs. And that they did a lot of gene swapping. Just last week I noticed that Wiki states that they were in the Levant together for 60,000 yrs. What this means to me is that the Cro-Magnon man that spread into Europe was already part Neanderthal. So, my belief (and I am not alone) is that he interbred, rather than went extinct.

I hope I've answered your main question.

Thanks for the replies. This is such a facinating subject and I'm really interested in what they are finding almost daily now it seems. Starting from zero, knowledge wise, it is nice to have this board and read all the comments and theories. I find it even better now that you don't have someone give you a religious lecture on the topic.

With the limited knowlede I have on this subject it does seem to me that Beagle has a point with the interbreeding. If there is a man and a woman around, especially in a limited population, if they can they usually will. I guess the main question would be could they produce offspring? Hopefully we will find out.
Donna

If there is a man and a woman around, especially in a limited population, if they can they usually will

Absolutely Donna. Darwin said that species change was the result of lots of small changes, modern though suggested it may have been much more sudden change. But all are agreed that the change is genetic. Hybridization is a genetic change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid

I think Neanderthal and HS could breed with little or no difficulty. We now know that they had the same number of chromosomes. Wiki explains well.

As I understand HG groups Beag they split when their numbers become sufficiently high as to force frequent moves. We already know that HSN and HSS with their clothes on aren't so very different, so a group splits and moves to new territory and their new neigbours are friendly. The rest is history.

Darwin also suggested that speciation results from a population being "isolated."

But were these various forms ever truly "isolated" from one other. They obviously mixed in the mid-east. HSS was in Morocco and HNS was just across the Straits in Spain. It already looks as if they had some rudimentary boating capability.

There have not been any Neanderthal skeletons found in Morocco Min, but they did find what is believed to be an encampment. There were mouseterian tools, etc. I don't know of an HS crossing.