The Hobbit on the see-saw

[Rokcet Scientist]

Wednesday, 5 March 2008, 10:48 GMT

New twist in Hobbit-human debate

The row over the origins of "Hobbit" fossils found on the Indonesian island of Flores has taken a new twist.
An Australian team claims the little people were not a new human species, but modern humans with a form of dwarfism caused by poor nutrition.

In 2004, international researchers announced the discovery of the ancient remains in the Liang Bua Cave.

There has been debate since then over whether the bones are from diseased humans or a new human "cousin".

The latest theory, published in the scientific journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, claims the Hobbits were true humans, but did not grow to normal size because of environmental factors.

Dr Peter Obendorf from the School of Applied Science at RMIT University, Melbourne, and colleagues, believe the little people developed a dwarfism condition because of severe nutritional deficiencies. [...]

Whole article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7276943.stm

[Minimalist]

The Australian group did not examine the original fossils.

That seems like a fairly impressive criticism.

[Digit]

Oh I love these broad canvas statements! Dwarfism caused by malnutrition?
Dwarfism can have a number of causes, and any that are not genetic in origin would be expected to leave other signs, and I stand open to correction in that I don't believe malnutrition to be one of them.

[Sam Salmon]

'Hobbit' hominids were dwarf cretins, say scientists

Cretin-A person of subnormal intelligence.

It seems to me a poor choice of words to describe these people-whoever they were-as cretins-given how long they managed to survive.

Anyone who's ever spent time in a jungle knows that life is not easy, food is rarely plentiful and the slow witted generally end up filling the bellies of their betters.

[Beagle]

I agree with Sam. And I disagree with any theory that includes mental retardation in it. The Hobbit, whatever they were, survived much too long for that to be a consideration.

[john]

I agree with Sam. And I disagree with any theory that includes mental retardation in it. The Hobbit, whatever they were, survived much too long for that to be a consideration.

All -

It is fairly obvious to me that the dwarf-cretins are the iodine deprived individuals from the scientific community.

"So much time, so little to do".


john

[Beagle]

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/bei ... news_rss20

And because of their long feet, H. floresiensis probably had to bend its knee further back than modern humans do, resulting in a sort of high-stepped gait. "You would watch these hobbits walk and say they're walking a little funny," Jungers says.

The foot had other peculiar features as well. For one, its big toe was quite short compared with the others, similar to earlier hominids such as Australopithecus. However, the shape of the toes, even the short big toe, is like modern human ones, Jungers says. "It has a human morphology and an ape-like proportion," he says.

Jungers and other researchers who claim the hobbit was a distinct species from Homo sapiens point to the foot as further evidence supporting their theory. It has been suggested that the hobbit suffered from a severe block to growth known as cretinism or a disease called microcephaly that leads to miniaturised heads.

"It puts another nail in the coffin of the disease hypothesis," says Henry McHenry, an anthropologist at the University of California, Davis who saw the presentation.

The "Hobbitt" had big feet. From Arch. News.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Are there HF remains of more than one individual that can be compared? Do we yet know if it was a whole population all sharing the same traits, like small heads, long feet, and odd big toes, or could this individual HF have been an abberation amongst his own populace?

[Beagle]

Are there HF remains of more than one individual that can be compared? Do we yet know if it was a whole population all sharing the same traits, like small heads, long feet, and odd big toes, or could this individual HF have been an abberation amongst his own populace?

I'm not entirely sure RS, but they do have other bones of other individuals. The nearly complete skeleton is one called HB1. At some point I think they hope to put some more bodies together.

However, your question made me think......what if they have the wrong head on that body?

We would never stop laughing in this forum.

[Minimalist]

We would never stop laughing in this forum.

We rarely do anyway.[/code][/quote]

[Rokcet Scientist]

Piltdown Man comes to mind...

[john]

I agree with Sam. And I disagree with any theory that includes mental retardation in it. The Hobbit, whatever they were, survived much too long for that to be a consideration.

All -

It is fairly obvious to me that the dwarf-cretins are the iodine deprived individuals from the scientific community.

"So much time, so little to do".


john

All -

Despite my flip comment above.

I've been unable to find the original reference in my books, but .....
A quick cop from the internet:


"By the year 1300 more than 3,000 colonists lived on 300 farms scattered along the west coast of Greenland (Schaefer, 1997.) However, even as early as 1197, the climate had turned much less favorable and drift ice was beginning to appear along the vital trade routes (Lamb, 1995.) Cool weather caused poor harvests in an already fragile climate. Because of the poor harvests there was less food for the livestock which resulted in a decreased meat supply. These conditions made it even more vital that trade continued with Iceland and the rest of Europe.

Due to an increase in drift ice along Greenland's east coast, the sailing route had to be changed. Ships had to head farther south and then turn back to reach the settlements along the southwest coast. The longer distance and increased threat of ice caused fewer ships to visit Greenland (Bryson, 1977.) Ivar Bardsson, a Norwegian priest who lived in Greenland from 1341 to 1364, wrote: "From Snefelsness in Iceland, to Greenland, the shortest way: two days and three nights. Sailing due west. In…the sea there are reefs called Gunbiernershier. That was the old route, but now the ice is come from the north, so close to the reefs that none can sail by the old route without risking his life." (Ladurie, 1971.) In 1492, the Pope complained that no bishop had been able to visit Greenland for 80 years on account of the ice (Calder, 1974.) It is most likely that his Greenland congregation was already dead or had moved on by that time. Hermann (1954) notes that during the mid-1300's many Greenlanders had moved on to Markland (presently Newfoundland) in search of a more suitable environment, mainly due to a cooler climate and over-use of their natural resources.

The graves and ruins in Greenland show that the people did make an attempt at civilized living until the end but the cold and lack of proper nourishment took a heavy toll (Bryson, 1977.) The early Greenland Vikings stood 5'7" or taller but by about 1400, Lamb (1966) states that the average Greenlander was probably less than five feet tall. After World War I, Denmark sent a commission to Greenland which found the remains of the early settlements. In their last years, the Greenland Vikings were severely crippled, dwarflike, twisted, and diseased (Hermann, 1954.)"

Now, this isn't to say that Homo f. weren't as old as they are, but it might cast some light on their physical condition, and on their speciation.


hoka hey


john

[Rokcet Scientist]

"[...] In their last years, the Greenland Vikings were severely crippled, dwarflike, twisted, and diseased (Hermann, 1954.)"

...If we didn't know they were Vikings, we might have thought them a new species and called 'm 'hobbits'...

[Digit]

I don't like this hobbit-habit, that's the second time today I've had to agree with you RS. Must be the weather. What do you think?
But yes, the argument on whether the Hobbit was or was not HSS will only be resolved by further samples.
But then again, how far from the 'norm' can you move and still be HSS I wonder?

[FreeThinker]

RS said:

Are there HF remains of more than one individual that can be compared? Do we yet know if it was a whole population all sharing the same traits, like small heads, long feet, and odd big toes, or could this individual HF have been an abberation amongst his own populace?

I am pretty sure that reamians of at least nine individuals have been found. The remains cover a time span of up to forty thousand years. Only one individual's remains has a good degree of completeness (LB1, which includes the famous skull published so much), the rest being far more fragmentary. Unfortunately only one cranium has been found to date (again, LB1) but the other more fragmentary remains are in general morphological agreement with each other, including LB1. Unless I am completely remembering things wrong there was also a partial mandible found that shared the unusual non-modern human features of LB1's mandible (lack of a chin and double roots in premolars).

As all you who have been following the case of the "hobbits" know, these traits have been hotly debated by all manner of experts, and the debate continues to rage to this day. Without another cranium to compare LB1 to I am sure these debates will continue. Another skull is needed and hopefully the ongoing work at Liang Bua will reveal one or more new craniums and the new species vs diseased modern debate will be settled.

One last point of interest is the wrist bones of LB1. A paper published examining the shape of the wrist bones concluded that their morphology was not modern, but have more similarities with apes and australopithecine wrists. A strong point for the "new species" camp, but again more specimens are needed.

I hope they get some new fossils and publish them soon. That is what is needed, but until then the debates will rage.