Ishtar wrote:
So the imaginery missing link makes the theory of the descent of man from a common ape ancestor work. That's how 'scientific' it is.
Man is an animal and we have observed evolution in other species....documented evolution.
Think of it (evolution) as a crossword puzzle if you will. You might have a word you can not get but if you fill in letters of connecting words (evidence) guess what...you can make a very good guess.
We may never find HSS but by filling in with what is found we get a better idea of what was.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
The only restraints that we have on our mind are the ones that we impose on ourself. We are limited by our own thinking.
I'm afraid that dear Ish still falls for the religious line that "man" is somehow special.
We aren't all that special. Apes with atomic weapons, hats, and overblown egos.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Ishtar wrote:
So the imaginery missing link makes the theory of the descent of man from a common ape ancestor work. That's how 'scientific' it is.
Man is an animal and we have observed evolution in other species....documented evolution.
Think of it (evolution) as a crossword puzzle if you will. You might have a word you can not get but if you fill in letters of connecting words (evidence) guess what...you can make a very good guess.
We may never find HSS but by filling in with what is found we get a better idea of what was.
So that's fine, Zan ... but you're talking about faith, not science. In the matter of descent, there is no evidence.
Ishtar wrote:
So the imaginery missing link makes the theory of the descent of man from a common ape ancestor work. That's how 'scientific' it is.
Man is an animal and we have observed evolution in other species....documented evolution.
Think of it (evolution) as a crossword puzzle if you will. You might have a word you can not get but if you fill in letters of connecting words (evidence) guess what...you can make a very good guess.
We may never find HSS but by filling in with what is found we get a better idea of what was.
So that's fine, Zan ... but you're talking about faith, not science. In the matter of descent, there is no evidence.
I see nothing in my post indicating faith of any type.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
The only restraints that we have on our mind are the ones that we impose on ourself. We are limited by our own thinking.
As recent as 50Kya, Neanderthals, Hss, H erectus (Java), and H. floriensis (maybe) were all stomping around the planet
If they were, in fact, different "species."
Bingo! You hit the jackpot.
How many of the above could interbreed? It is my estimate that all of them could.
They all possessed some form of cognitive ability - although I'm not too certain about Hss.
Minimalist wrote:I'm afraid that dear Ish still falls for the religious line that "man" is somehow special.
We aren't all that special. Apes with atomic weapons, hats, and overblown egos.
Where have I said that I think we're special?
That's putting words into my mouth.
And I'm not religious, either.....
I'm not going to import quotes from Koko's, either!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
As recent as 50Kya, Neanderthals, Hss, H erectus (Java), and H. floriensis (maybe) were all stomping around the planet
If they were, in fact, different "species."
Bingo! You hit the jackpot.
How many of the above could interbreed? It is my estimate that all of them could.
They all possessed some form of cognitive ability - although I'm not too certain about Hss.
Yeah... the more the Out of Africa crowd screams the more convinced I am about multi-regionalism.
Call me a throwback!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
But they didn't interbreed - or not that much, I think I'm right in saying. So what would that tell us?
Admixture studies would disagree with that comment - and I ain't talkin' mtDNA. You have arrived at the core of the issue between OOA and multi-regionalists such as Wolpoff. He argues that there was just enough interbreeding to allow for continuous hybridization, thereby obviating the species bifurcation between Erectus, Neanderthals, and Sapiens. Therefore, nomenclature becomes:
H. sapien erectus
H. sapien neanderthalis
H. sapien sapien
All of the above had cognitive abilities, therefore the sapien designation.
Cognito wrote:You have arrived at the core of the issue between OOA and multi-regionalists such as Wolpoff. He argues that there was just enough interbreeding to allow for continuous hybridization, thereby obviating the species bifurcation between Erectus, Neanderthals, and Sapiens. Therefore, nomenclature becomes:
H. sapien erectus
H. sapien neanderthalis
H. sapien sapien
All of the above had cognitive abilities, therefore the sapien designation.
well, I think that was bloody clever of me to arrive so quickly at the heart of the debate when I'm walking blindfolded in an underground coal cellar on a moonless night!
Probably beginners' luck!
But I'm interested - if it's the heart of the debate between the OAs and the MRs, and Wolpof is putting the hybridisation case - what are the OAs saying about that? What is the other side of the argument?
Sorry to have so many questions ... perhaps you could do a dummies guide for me?
Ish;
I am impressed!
It is a pure defensive battle you seem to be in and you are doing well.
(I am not aware what “Koko” means, I assume another board that I do not frequent. So, like you I am in the dark on some of the arguments flying around.)
Cog;
Doesn’t species interbreeding usually produce sterile offspring?
(Horse/Donkey = Mule)
(I think we have talked about this before and someone brought up the fact that mules are not 100 percent sterile. But the percentage was so low that even in a controlled breeding environment you could not produce a mule/mule offspring.)
So, if you did have a half-breed, or hybrid, in an uncontrolled environment, what would be the chances of it passing on any traits?
Any interbreeding would just be another dead-end.
The math gets to a point that no bookie would touch.
