Written communications 60,000 yrs ago ~ on ostrich shells

[Sam Salmon]

....And still no wheel or writing.

You're really desperate now aren't you?

[Rokcet Scientist]

....And still no wheel or writing.

You're really desperate now aren't you?

No, I am really factual now, Sam! I don't feel the need to resort to psychological warfare yet to keep my fantasies alive.

[Sam Salmon]

[No, I am really factual now, Sam! I don't feel the need to resort to psychological warfare yet to keep my fantasies alive.

Come and visit the Anthropology Museum and see for yourself.

[circumspice]

Again, you are letting your ethnocentrism shine through. People build out of what is handy. In a heavily forested region wood is the material of choice. In desert regions, people use mud brick.

The fact that they did not share your predisposition to building with stone or cement is almost meaningless.

Fine. So, wood, eh?
OK, did they build stuff like this then?

?

Dunno why it won't load. If you like go have a look at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Gadang.jpg.

Thanks to the Spanish and their book-burning priest/thugs we have little left of the thought of the even those civilizations who did build in stone.

No lo contendere. Carthage revisited.

Mann's whole point is that there was a disease-caused cataclysm which engulfed the New World.

I don't argue that. Quite the contrary. Disease wiped out 95% of the original inhabitants of the 'New World' in the 16th century, imo. (So we had to go you one better, and we went and made a whole subrace go extinct in the 17th century: the Hottentots... Talk about holocaust!).
As has probably happened before.
Like maybe with Clovis?
To me that still is a more easily acceptable scenario than the 'comet from the skies' hypotheses. I'm not saying those didn't drop from the heavens. Only that a flu or similar – like a contemporary version of H.I.V./AIDS... – can be just as effective. Or even more effective if there's a genetic 'hook' into Clovis' DNA making him extra susceptible. He would have been wiped out in 25 to 40 years. That is almost instantly as extinctions go in the paleolithical record.

It happens all the time: the Spanish flu killed 35 million people in Europe in 1919. The Black Plague of the 13th century is estimated to have killed 100 million Europeans. More than half the entire population.

Of course dying of the flu has a lot less sex appeal than gargantuan exploding comets...[/quote]



http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/20 ... orida.html


This is a link that Dig posted on another thread. It shows yet another example of a NA Indian village, this time comparable to the Northern European stilt villages. Apparently the preservation of materials was good enough to show there was considerable architectural and artistic talents shown by these people.

[Rokcet Scientist]

http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/20 ... orida.html

This is a link that Dig posted on another thread. It shows yet another example of a NA Indian village, this time comparable to the Northern European stilt villages. Apparently the preservation of materials was good enough to show there was considerable architectural and artistic talents shown by these people.

Then "these people", by the time they were first observed by 'foreigners', i.e. 500 years ago, were still at the same civilisational point that the pre-Sumerians and pre-ancient Egyptians were 10,000 years ago.

Stilt villages were the rigueur in the Mesopotamian, Nile, and Indus deltas from >12,000 to 6,000 YBP, and developed into city states with kings, writing, legal and administration systems, agriculture, the wheel, mathematics, science, astronomy, wars, global trade, etc. etc.
Nothing of the kind happened in north America. North American inhabitants did not go through any meaningful independent civilisational developments in the last 12,000 years.

After Clovis time stood totally still, in north America.
I wonder why.
It is a fact that cries out to be recognized for what it is. But for 'politically correct', petty reasons it is ignored and swept under the carpet.
North Americans seem to have a problem facing that reality.

[Ishtar]

Which North Americans find it hard to "face that reality", RS?

It would only deemed to be politically incorrect if you accept the following: change = progress and progress = a good thing.

Change = progress = a good thing is a modern idea that probably stems from Neo Darwinist ideas about evolution.

That early man lived in a sustainable way with the planet by using biodegradeable materials like wood surely points to a more advanced intelligence than our own? That he didn't need to invent the wheel because it would have been virtually useless in the natural terrains he wandered in with his cattle doesn't make ancient man a dunderhead. In fact, they did have the wheel in Meso America but only used it on children's toys because they were useless for much else. You might as well accuse early man of being ignorant about nutrition because he didn't have Dunkin' Donuts and drive-in MacDonalds. He also wasn't prone to obesity ...I wonder why?

[Minimalist]

surely points to a more advanced intelligence than our own?

Or, it points to reality, Ish. People build with the materials at hand. What R/S ignores is that while his precious cathedrals were being built most of the workmen lived in thatched huts.

R/S, if you want to argue that people waste too much time and treasure building monuments to non-existent gods I am with you but I draw the line when you insist that there is a hierarchy of how these structures must be built in order to have some sort of continuum of progress.

The mound-builders of the Mississippi Valley may have been every bit as religious as the Bishop of Chartres but their solution was different. Not better or worse.

[circumspice]

http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/20 ... orida.html

This is a link that Dig posted on another thread. It shows yet another example of a NA Indian village, this time comparable to the Northern European stilt villages. Apparently the preservation of materials was good enough to show there was considerable architectural and artistic talents shown by these people.

Then "these people", by the time they were first observed by 'foreigners', i.e. 500 years ago, were still at the same civilisational point that the pre-Sumerians and pre-ancient Egyptians were 10,000 years ago.

Stilt villages were the rigueur in the Mesopotamian, Nile, and Indus deltas from >12,000 to 6,000 YBP, and developed into city states with kings, writing, legal and administration systems, agriculture, the wheel, mathematics, science, astronomy, wars, global trade, etc. etc.
Nothing of the kind happened in north America. North American inhabitants did not go through any meaningful independent civilisational developments in the last 12,000 years.

After Clovis time stood totally still, in north America.
I wonder why.
It is a fact that cries out to be recognized for what it is. But for 'politically correct', petty reasons it is ignored and swept under the carpet.
North Americans seem to have a problem facing that reality.

Apparently, stilt villages are still being built and occupied by people. Shouldn't they be reviled as primative also?

http://travelhouseuk.wordpress.com/2008 ... on-stilts/

Nzulezu or Nzulezo Stilt Settlement in Western Region, Mysteries never cease. People throughout the world have learned to live in ways that seem unimaginable to many. Village dwellers whose abodes are extraordinarily erected on stilts are among these marvels.Thailand, the Philippines, Cambodia, Myanmar, China, Vietnam and even Nova Scotia, Canada boast villages on stilts. Each village has its own unique tale which locals love to tell. Fabulous fables are related down through the generations in Benin and Nigeria of tribes who took refuge on the water creating homes on stilts to ensure security from their enemies.Stilt villages like Nzulezu (also known as Nzulezo), found in the Jomoro District in the Western Region, Ghana near Beyin, are a wonder to those who have the opportunity to observe these amazing sites. It’s no wonder Nzulezu became a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2000.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The mound-builders of the Mississippi Valley may have been every bit as religious as the Bishop of Chartres but their solution was different. Not better or worse.

Not better or worse.
I have never affixed a qualitative judgment to civilisation developments!
They simply are what they are.
Or, in the case of north America, they simply are what they aren't!
The mound-builders of the Mississippi Valley's solution certainly was different: about 10,000 years more primitive.
Again: that's not a value judgement. Just a statement of fact.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Apparently, stilt villages are still being built and occupied by people. Shouldn't they be reviled as primative also?

No, they should be acknowledged as primitive. 'Reviled' is a qualification. And entirely yours!