Haven't we all Beag. Quite why the Club was so resistant to MR as opposed to OOA I've never understood, the evidence has been plain enough for long enough.
Roy.
Neandertal Lives !!
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Minimalist
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Re: Neandertal Lives !!
So if they interbred with HNS in the Levant why not with HE in Asia!
Celebration is over. Time to start pushing the frontier again, boys!
Celebration is over. Time to start pushing the frontier again, boys!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
In light of having just finished "The Invisible Sex" by Adovasio, Soffer and Page, I'm actually really curious about the consent question raised mostly in jest. Since it's not very likely that we'll suddenly discover a 40,000 year old copy of the neanderthal Kama Sutra, we'll likely never know for sure but I think we have to initially assume that interbreeding was both consensual and non-consensual...just like it was in early history and, sadly, today.
I've read that we're beginning to assemble data suggesting that neanderthals were more developed socially than was originally thought. Discoveries like the seashell necklaces found in Spain come to mind. Perhaps future finds and interpretations will refine our understanding of the breeding relationships that formed the genetic bridge between our species to the point that we can more accurately theorize on the true motivations for interbreeding.
The use of shells as jewelry hints at social stratification or at least a concept of individual status. One could jump from there to the idea that sapiens women were initially traded to established neanderthal groups as peace offerings. On the other side of the coin, maybe sapiens women were so enamored by the glamorous shells retrieved and worn by neanderthal men that they jumped the sapiens ship and walked off into the woods with their new clan not realizing that the renegade genes they carried would help seal the doom of neanderthal.
I've read that we're beginning to assemble data suggesting that neanderthals were more developed socially than was originally thought. Discoveries like the seashell necklaces found in Spain come to mind. Perhaps future finds and interpretations will refine our understanding of the breeding relationships that formed the genetic bridge between our species to the point that we can more accurately theorize on the true motivations for interbreeding.
The use of shells as jewelry hints at social stratification or at least a concept of individual status. One could jump from there to the idea that sapiens women were initially traded to established neanderthal groups as peace offerings. On the other side of the coin, maybe sapiens women were so enamored by the glamorous shells retrieved and worn by neanderthal men that they jumped the sapiens ship and walked off into the woods with their new clan not realizing that the renegade genes they carried would help seal the doom of neanderthal.
“Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength, move on.” - Henry Rollins
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
It's been obvious to a lot of people dig, but the other side is not taking this lying down. We'll hear from them soon.
And that's today, the original Cro Magnons may have had a greater proportion of HNS genes.
Those sorts of questions are being asked by scientists and laymen alike. A lot more info will be coming out over the year, as more study is done. But 4% in some Eurasians is whopping. These genes were described by Paabo as being involved with things like skin, cognition, metabolism, and the skeleton. That is a lot!So if they interbred with HNS in the Levant why not with HE in Asia!
And that's today, the original Cro Magnons may have had a greater proportion of HNS genes.
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
"This suggests that some of the genes that were positively selected may have had to do with cognitive development. ...Several genes showed evidence of positive selection in humans as opposed to Neanderthals - including genes linked to schizophrenia, autism and Down syndrome. "This suggests that some of the genes that were positively selected may have had to do with cognitive development. ... It doesn't suggest that Neanderthals had no autism, or that they were more similar to people with autism," Pääbo said.
Do I read this as we may have gained our intellect from these matings?
Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Rokcet Scientist
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
They did of course! Their progeny is all around us! We are that progeny. In an endless variety. But more recognisable genetic subsets are also among us: the Aboriginals, the Papua, the Bushmen, the Ba'aka, etc. etc.Minimalist wrote:So if they interbred with HNS in the Levant why not with HE in Asia!
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
Digit - I really doubt it but no one knows right now. Unfortunately, there are some ugly discussions going on in some forums, which I don't frequent anyway.
But now:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/328/5979/710
Here is the study, being distributed everywhere I guess. It's a lot to chew on, and I may wait to see what people like Hawks have to say about it. It's been a long, fun, few days, and I'm tired. Have fun Neanderpeople (some of you anyway).
But now:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/328/5979/710
Here is the study, being distributed everywhere I guess. It's a lot to chew on, and I may wait to see what people like Hawks have to say about it. It's been a long, fun, few days, and I'm tired. Have fun Neanderpeople (some of you anyway).
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Minimalist
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Re: Neandertal Lives !!
Rokcet Scientist wrote:They did of course! Their progeny is all around us! We are that progeny. In an endless variety. But more recognisable genetic subsets are also among us: the Aboriginals, the Papua, the Bushmen, the Ba'aka, etc. etc.Minimalist wrote:So if they interbred with HNS in the Levant why not with HE in Asia!
Stating it and getting evidence of it are two different things, though.
And Johnny, HNS has undergone a bit of a cultural rehabilitation in recent years as science has moved away from the brutish caveman model.
Still....guys are going to be guys!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Rokcet Scientist
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
Probably. But I don't see any more need to get it. The fact that HN hybridized with HSS is enough evidence for me. No reason HE/HSS romance would have been any different. Or HE/HN for that matter.Minimalist wrote:Stating it and getting evidence of it are two different things, though.Rokcet Scientist wrote:They did of course! Their progeny is all around us! We are that progeny. In an endless variety. But more recognisable genetic subsets are also among us: the Aboriginals, the Papua, the Bushmen, the Ba'aka, etc. etc.Minimalist wrote:So if they interbred with HNS in the Levant why not with HE in Asia!
I'd like to get on, and concentrate on the implications.
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
One of the implications, for me, is the point that I have made in the past, hybrid vigour!
Roy.
Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Rokcet Scientist
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
Looks like I missed that. Could you expand a little?Digit wrote:One of the implications, for me, is the point that I have made in the past, hybrid vigour.
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
You'd need to go back to when I joined here to follow that debate RS, but basically there is the idea that a 'good' crossing produces off spring that is 'better' than either of its parents.
That is why I questioned as to whether the earlier post suggested that our intelligence came from HSN.
Min and I joked about the idea at the time that we could see HSN moving up from a shambling cave man to being the one with the brains.
Roy.
That is why I questioned as to whether the earlier post suggested that our intelligence came from HSN.
Min and I joked about the idea at the time that we could see HSN moving up from a shambling cave man to being the one with the brains.
Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Rokcet Scientist
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
I was around then.Digit wrote:You'd need to go back to when I joined here to follow that debate RS,
Just as 'bad' crossings produce offspring that is 'worse' than its parents. And so will perish (survival of the fittest, after all).but basically there is the idea that a 'good' crossing produces off spring that is 'better' than either of its parents.
That's just evolution for you.
And imo there were many, many more non-starter evolutionary changes than there were successful ones. Extinction is the rule, evolutionary survival is the exception.
Re: Neandertal Lives !!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ought.html
This is a decent article but when one gets to the paragraph that states Neanderthals had no shelter, anyone in this forum should know that is just Ignorant CRAP.
We now know that there was not just ONE Neanderthal. Some in central Europe ate just meat during huge ice ages, and most in the Doggerlands were fish eaters. The story keeps developing.
This is a decent article but when one gets to the paragraph that states Neanderthals had no shelter, anyone in this forum should know that is just Ignorant CRAP.
We now know that there was not just ONE Neanderthal. Some in central Europe ate just meat during huge ice ages, and most in the Doggerlands were fish eaters. The story keeps developing.