Romulus and Remus unhinged!

[Rokcet Scientist]

"the two cherubic babes were added to that shewolf statue during the Renaissance"...?

Are you suggesting that bronze replica is ancient itself? That it dates back from before the Renaissance? That's interesting. So where did it come from? The local indians won't have had it standing there when Davy Crockett rode in, would they?

[stan]

I mean the original...in Italy or wherever it is now.:
You can see it is in a different style than the babes.

Maybe the R&R & Shewolf legend was there, and there was
this she wolf statue..
I don't know if it had any special standing in ancient Rome.
It could have been an emblem of Romulus and the "founding."
But in any case it apparently did not have any babies underneath.

[Minimalist]

This one






is in the Museo Capitolino in Rome.

I suspect the one in Georgia may be a copy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Those 'babies' are Romulus and Remus!

[stan]

Rokcet, what have you been smoking?

I know they represent Romulus and Remus...but these little bronze statues were created during the Renaissance and added to the Etruscan
she-wolf statue then, almost 2000 years since R&R walked the earth.
What a tradition!

By the way, I learned today that Neandertals lived in Italy, and that
the oldest human artifacts in Europe were found in Italy,
at Isernia la Pineta, from 730k years ago.

[Minimalist]

Those 'babies' are Romulus and Remus!

In Georgia they call them Jim Bob and Billy Ray.

[stan]

real good!

[Guest]

By the way, I learned today that Neandertals lived in Italy, and that
the oldest human artifacts in Europe were found in Italy,
at Isernia la Pineta, from 730k years ago.

Stan,
Here's an update on the oldest artefacts found in Europe. http://www.northampton.ac.uk/pr05dec20.php

[Rokcet Scientist]

[quote="stan"]
By the way, I learned today that Neandertals lived in Italy, and that
the oldest human artifacts in Europe were found in Italy,
at Isernia la Pineta, from 730k years ago.[/quote]

The oldest human remains found in Europe are the remains of "Homo Georgicus", 1,8 million years old. They were found in 2001 (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html) in Dmanisi, Georgia, ex-U.S.S.R.
When I went to school, I learned that Europe's eastern border is formed by the Urals. Georgia is (south-)west of the Urals, thus in Europe.

[stan]

The oldest human remains found in Europe are the remains of "Homo Georgicus", 1,8 million years old. They were found in 2001 (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html) in Dmanisi, Georgia, ex-U.S.S.R.

Ok,but I said "artifacts," not "remains."

More later, gotta go to work....

[Rokcet Scientist]

[quote="stan"][quote]Ok,but I said "artifacts," not "remains."

More later, gotta go to work....[/quote]

There were tools found too at the same site, stan. Same age.

[stan]

Ok...my figures are out of date, and I didn't know about the
tools in Georgia...just the bones.
My citations came from the Atlas of Archeology, published by
Dorling Kindersley in 1998. Someone gave it to me for Christmas, and
I assumed it was a newer edition.

I am happy to be corrected, but my main point was simply that
people lived in Italy way before 1000 bc, and that there may be even older material underneath Rome. Especially true in the Mediterranean
area.

Major city sites tended to be built on older sites. Even in the US, places like Chicago, St. Louis, and many others were built on areas cleared and
previously occupied by Native Americans ( e.g., Cahokia at St. Louis).

[stan]

Ok...my figures are out of date, and I didn't know about the
tools in Georgia...just the bones.
My citations came from the Atlas of Archeology, published by
Dorling Kindersley in 1998. Someone gave it to me for Christmas, and
I assumed it was a newer edition.

I am happy to be corrected, but my main point was simply that
people lived in Italy way before 1000 bc, and that there may be even older material underneath Rome. Especially true in the Mediterranean
area.

Major city sites tended to be built on older sites. Even in the US, places like Chicago, St. Louis, and many others were built on areas cleared and
previously occupied by Native Americans ( e.g., Cahokia at St. Louis).

[Minimalist]

For anyone interested, here is an online translation of The Early History of Rome, by Titus Livius.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy01.html


The pertinent part to this discussion is:

[1.3]His son, Ascanius, was not old enough to assume the government; but his throne remained secure throughout his minority. During that interval - such was Lavinia's force of character - though a woman was regent, the Latin State, and the kingdom of his father and grandfather, were preserved unimpaired for her son. I will not discuss the question - for who could speak decisively about a matter of such extreme antiquity? - whether the man whom the Julian house claim, under the name of Iulus, as the founder of their name, was this Ascanius or an older one than he, born of Creusa, whilst Ilium was still intact, and after its fall a sharer in his father's fortunes. This Ascanius, where ever born, or of whatever mother - it is generally agreed in any case that he was the son of Aeneas - left to his mother (or his stepmother) the city of Lavinium, which was for those days a prosperous and wealthy city, with a superabundant population, and built a new city at the foot of the Alban hills, which from its position, stretching along the side of the hill, was called "Alba Longa." An interval of thirty years elapsed between the foundation of Lavinium and the colonisation of Alba Longa. Such had been the growth of the Latin power, mainly through the defeat of the Etruscans, that neither at the death of Aeneas, nor during the regency of Lavinia, nor during the immature years of the reign of Ascanius, did either Mezentius and the Etruscans or any other of their neighbours venture to attack them. When terms of peace were being arranged, the river Albula, now called the Tiber, had been fixed as the boundary between the Etruscans and the Latins.

Ascanius was succeeded by his son Silvius, who by some chance had been born in the forest. He became the father of Aeneas Silvius, who in his turn had a son, Latinus Silvius. He planted a number of colonies: the colonists were called Prisci Latini. The cognomen of Silvius was common to all the remaining kings of Alba, each of whom succeeded his father. Their names are Alba, Atys, Capys, Capetus, Tiberinus, who was drowned in crossing the Albula, and his name transferred to the river, which became henceforth the famous Tiber. Then came his son Agrippa, after him his son Romulus Silvius. He was struck by lightning and left the crown to his son Aventinus, whose shrine was on the hill which bears his name and is now a part of the city of Rome. He was succeeded by Proca, who had two sons, Numitor and Amulius. To Numitor, the elder, he bequeathed the ancient throne of the Silvian house. Violence, however, proved stronger than either the father's will or the respect due to the brother's seniority; for Amulius expelled his brother and seized the crown. Adding crime to crime, he murdered his brother's sons and made the daughter, Rea Silvia, a Vestal virgin; thus, under the presence of honouring her, depriving her of all hopes of issue.

[1.4]But the Fates had, I believe, already decreed the origin of this great city and the foundation of the mightiest empire under heaven. The Vestal was forcibly violated and gave birth to twins. She named Mars as their father, either because she really believed it, or because the fault might appear less heinous if a deity were the cause of it. But neither gods nor men sheltered her or her babes from the king's cruelty; the priestess was thrown into prison, the boys were ordered to be thrown into the river. By a heaven-sent chance it happened that the Tiber was then overflowing its banks, and stretches of standing water prevented any approach to the main channel. Those who were carrying the children expected that this stagnant water would be sufficient to drown them, so under the impression that they were carrying out the king's orders they exposed the boys at the nearest point of the overflow, where the Ficus Ruminalis (said to have been formerly called Romularis) now stands. The locality was then a wild solitude. The tradition goes on to say that after the floating cradle in which the boys had been exposed had been left by the retreating water on dry land, a thirsty she-wolf from the surrounding hills, attracted by the crying of the children, came to them, gave them her teats to suck and was so gentle towards them that the king's flock-master found her licking the boys with her tongue. According to the story, his name was Faustulus. He took the children to his hut and gave them to his wife Larentia to bring up. Some writers think that Larentia, from her unchaste life, had got the nickname of "She-wolf" amongst the shepherds, and that this was the origin of the marvellous story. As soon as the boys, thus born and thus brought up, grew to be young men they did not neglect their pastoral duties, but their special delight was roaming through the woods on hunting expeditions. As their strength and courage were thus developed, they used not only to lie in wait for fierce beasts of prey, but they even attacked brigands when loaded with plunder. They distributed what they took amongst the shepherds, with whom, surrounded by a continually increasing body of young men, they associated themselves in their serious undertakings and in their sports and pastimes.

[stan]

Thanks, Bob.
A great story.
I like Livy's objectivity...what a guy!