Indus Valley Civilization.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:07 pm

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/a ... ley_1.html

The Aryan-Dravidian Controversy
By David Frawley

I haven't completely made up my mind up on this issue. A lot of argument rages right now. This article is pretty interesting.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:50 pm

http://indiapost.com/article/india/150

NEW DELHI: The excavated city of Dwarka, the pristine abode of Lord Krishna, discovered by the octogenarian archeologist S R Rao under the Arabian Sea in the coast of Gujarat is once again getting buried under the sands, thanks to neglect by the authorities.

This "under sea city of Dwarka" lies in close proximity to near the present Dwarka temple in Saurashtra. According to archeologists this under-sea city was the real Dwarka where Lord Krishna lived.

This was discovered by Rao and his team during an underwater excavation in 1994. The excavation had lasted for nearly 14 years.

A proposal by Rao to develop the site as underwater tourist attraction by cleaning up the site, provide support to the structures and shield them from degeneration has remained in the dusty shelves of the government.

"Sea sand has once again covered the excavated city as it was not preserved. The stones would have been displaced from their original position due to currents and cyclones," Rao told PTI.

No work has been done to preserve the site since they finished excavation in 1994, Rao who also discovered ancient city of Lothal said.

The entire article is quoted. Dwarka is said to have been rebuilt 7 times since antiquity and has been flooded as many times. The current ruins are being destroyed as they submerge.
From the Daily Grail.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:01 pm

Like it or not there is a real racial overtone to this. Are the people of India “black” or “Negro” or “just dark Aryans” or what. In other words, are they from Africa or not? And do they carry whatever baggage that may mean, or not?
One of my first jobs was in the data processing department of a large company in downtown Chicago. My boss was classic large man of Chicago South Side Irish descent. The keypunch department supervisor (anybody remember keypunch departments?) was Chicago South Side Black, and very good looking.
This was all in the days before P C, and when asking her for a favor, he would often, in view and hearing range of everybody around, make a point of “hitting on her” with the term “I would walk with you down the streets of Selma, Alabama, claiming you were an Indian Princess.”
More times then not, he got what he was asking for.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:25 pm

Like it or not there is a real racial overtone to this.

Hi KB. Are you talking about the article I posted or the whole thread?
I'm confused.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 pm

Maybe both?
Where are the current people of the sub continent from?
What kind of heritage do they have?
Is it cultural, regional, religious, racial, or what?
As a current national group, what kind background do they have to be proud of? If any.
In short, who are they?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:47 pm

Wow, that's alot. This thread is about their ancient culture and we've been asking questions about their cultural and genetic heritage. There is some conflicting theories now about that among archaeologists.

Regarding the actual racial categorization - I'll seee what I can find for you.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:58 pm

http://www.racialcompact.com/racesofhumanity.html

III. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies (Geographic distribution centered in the Caucasus mountains)

I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India)
J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend)

They are classified as a caucasoid subspecies. The main two are quoted here. Personally I think the most telling word in the quote is the last one - blend - which we all are.

Hope that helps KB.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:50 pm

I am not sure what what is meant by race. Especially since the physical features which traditionally separate the races are so impossible to define.

As I posted before, I think there is a link between this thread and the OOA vs Mutliregional thread. The Indian culture is clearly one of the oldest on earth. The OOA types will show a migrational path directly out of east africa, passing into the sub-contintent and onward to S.E. asia. Are these the peoples who eventuallye evolved a complex civilization, or did they come from later invasions from other regions? Maybe its something that will be uncovered to a degree as the evidences are examined. There are definately strong opinions to spare.

stan · Post by **stan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:27 pm

I met a beautiful Indian lady at school who was very dark skinned, but with straight hair. The palms of her hands and the bottoms of her feet were brigh pink.
This pink-palms trait is not universal among Africans.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:58 am

According to the do-gooders here Monk there is no such thing as race!
With the modern movements of populations I think the edges are becoming blurred, but discounting skin colour the physical differences between native Australians, with their stocky build, and the classical Scandinavian for example, are obvious to all but the politically blinded.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:24 am

Back to the idea of the ancient culture and current population.
What is the relationship, if any?
Are they looking for history or heritage?
Here in North America, the current population and the ancient cultures we have evidence of have no relationship other than geographical.
We are just at the same place in a different time.
Except for a few "native" archeologists, most of the people doing the digging are in it for information, not a personal relationship with past ancestors.
Is that the case in India?
Or do we have a case like Egypt, where we have a very different culture with a very simular DNA. (Or as close a DNA match as you can get in a port culture around the mouth of one of the biggest rivers in the world. I have heard the sailors like to mix things up a bit.)
BTW when I said "racial" in my original comment I guess I meant "color".
My bosses remark would not have meant anything if the current population of India didn't have dark skins.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:10 am

Depends KB on what you mean by India, do you mean the modern state or do you mean the sub-continent?
The sub continent is occupied by a number of distinct races who have reached the area at different times.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:30 pm

Are these the peoples who eventuallye evolved a complex civilization, or did they come from later invasions from other regions? Maybe its something that will be uncovered to a degree as the evidences are examined. There are definately strong opinions to spare.

Monk, you've hit the nail on the head about one of the major controversies regarding the Indus/Sarasvati civilization. My biggest interest is in the antiquity of the civilization and the possibility that it covered the entire subcontinent.

But taking the Aryan Invasion Theory first, it's my thinking that it is nearly as dead as the Clovis first theory.

To begin with, before we post any relevant articles, I would invite any readers who are interested in this subject to Google "aryan invasion", and without necessarily reading the subject matter, to skim about the first 5-10 pages and see what is generally being written.

Cogs, you might want to Google "aryan invasion genetics".

This is all relatively new stuff since the discovery of the Saraswati river, which flowed down from the Himalayas and had a major tributary outlet at the Gulf of Cambay.

When the glaciers melted back to the "snow line" the river dried up.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:49 pm

On the basis of recent genetic analysis Beag it seems possible that the first people into India are the present day Andaman Islanders. Their genetic code seems to represent the earliest people out of Africa and into Asia that are currently traceable.

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:01 pm

To begin with, before we post any relevant articles, I would invite any readers who are interested in this subject to Google "aryan invasion", and without necessarily reading the subject matter, to skim about the first 5-10 pages and see what is generally being written.

Cogs, you might want to Google "aryan invasion genetics".

This is all relatively new stuff since the discovery of the Saraswati river, which flowed down from the Himalayas and had a major tributary outlet at the Gulf of Cambay.

When the glaciers melted back to the "snow line" the river dried up.

Beags, the Aryan Invasion Theory has been dead for some time. There was a significant influx of R1a into India from the Caucasus region during the late Pleistocene/early Holocene, but who said that was an "invasion"? I am familiar with the satellite pictures of the Saraswati River and its connection to the Vedas as well as the claims made for the Gulf of Cambay. However, there is nothing impressive to be found in the gulf so far, just a lot of wishful speculation and a few artifacts that could have easily washed downstream.