Indus Valley Civilization.

[daybrown]

Ya, who getsta define a city. Hodder didnt try. But Sass caculates that when agriculture came in, the amount of land needed to support a group shrank by a factor of 500. This allowed an unprecidented number of people. In the same era when Jericho was a village of a few hundred, the Anatolian cities ran in the thousands.

Thats why they didnt need defensive walls. Aggressive nomad or hunting tribes could only put 75 warriors on the field. Attack a place like Hacilar, and they come swarming out like hornets.

I dunno why it dont dawn on Hodder, but they dont need streets cause they use the smoke holes in the roof to come and go. This results in a deep well of cool air to live in during the long hot summers. But completely draft free during winter.

Another reason to call it a city is that it was an industrial zone. Hodder reports that most of the houses were in the business of making obsidian points. I've seen a report on one of these operations that produced points in 2 different styles. One preferred down in the Levant, the other in Europe.

International trade 10,000 years ago. Another hall mark of a city.

Regarding the Great Flood, I have a national Geo map of the land as well as the bottom of the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara. There was also a report posted on the net, and a sci channel presentation on a peculiar fault that runs from East to West across Northern Turkey, which plunges into a rift valley seen in the Sea of Marmara bottom.

The National Geo Map also shows a delta on the ENE end where the Euxine lake had dumped in using the Sakarya river valley. Plate tectonics has changed the elevation in that region dramatically over the millennia. Perhaps you recall a quake which resulted in a Sea of Marmara resort dropping 2 meters into the sea. Photos of the resort resturant umbrellas sticking up outta the water were commonly posted.

I've yet to see a definitive reconstruction of the ancient topography. Perhaps because it'd be damn difficult. And one of the problems is the above mentioned fault, which goes over like dominos... but each domino waits 20 years before it goes over. And each domino that goes over, increases the strength of the quake.

One of the things that would have happened before the Bophorus opened up in Ryan & Pitman's scenario, is that because the sea level rose so fast in this era, the quake would have disrupted aquifers, and they would have begun leaking sea water north. This would have made the springs in the Euxine lake basin gush like artesian wells.

And *this* is *EGZACTLY* what it says happened in the Torah. None of the other "Great Floods" that have been proposed would have had this.

[Cognito]

One of the things that would have happened before the Bophorus opened up in Ryan & Pitman's scenario, is that because the sea level rose so fast in this era, the quake would have disrupted aquifers, and they would have begun leaking sea water north. This would have made the springs in the Euxine lake basin gush like artesian wells.

During the LGM sea levels were 120 meters below present. The Bosporus depth currently averages between 50 to 110 meters moving from end to end. Granted that the Mediterranean eventually over-flowed the Bosporus cut and dumped into the Black Sea a la Ryan & Pittman; however, the sill was broken and the channel already formed by Late Pleistocene glacial melt and super-floods flowing in the opposite direction at an earlier date. Otherwise, there wouldn't be two deltas present on the Mediterranean side as evidenced by Ali Aksu et al.

After the termination of the LGM about 16,000bce a tremendous amount of fresh water began flowing into the Caspian and Black Seas as the glaciers receded. The Caspian (twice its present area) was topping over the North Caucasus Isthmus into the Black Sea along the Manytsch Straits. The Aral Sea was far larger and flowing into the Caspian at times, and the Ob Valley Watershed was a shallow sea. Ice dam breeches resulting in super-floods were creating chaos downstream, all the way to the lowlands of Greece, now submerged.

[Digit]

A civilisation doesn't need to lose all its people to vanish Cog. A city state could lose its stored food to a plague of mice, (see Australian plagues) for example and trouble looms.
Locusts could have a devastating effect on a city state, as could tsunami, earthquakes et al, and as pointed out earlier, we wouldn't even know about them.

[Beagle]

Hancock still thinks that the answer is off the Indian coast....underwater!

The underwater city in the Gulf of Cambay. We were just talking about the GHMB, and here is an example. This is an Indian geologist posting there.

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/Badr ... B1.php?p=1

So, from the foregoing it is very evident the prehistoric civilization that matured and developed in the present day Gulf of Cambay was the forerunner and model to the subsequent advanced Harrapan civilization known to history. This wonderful twin prehistoric metropolis of Cambay lasted from about 13000 BP to about 3000 BP making it the most ancient and largest city civilization not only in Asia but in the entire world. It is seen to be at least 7500 years older than the oldest Mesopotamian city civilization. However strong evidence supports the presence of humans from at least 31000 BP who were evolving and developing and formed a great hitherto unknown civilization that were submerged by the flood, giving credence to local and global flood myths

This is the last paragraph in a long article (6 pages). It's very good but for those who don't want to read that much, at least look at the pictures. The side scan photography is unmistakable.

All that is left is to date the city. I haven't found any results yet on the piece of wood from the well.

Won't help you anyway as you can't match the wood with any structure. There are very strong currents there, remember?
In fact, despite the article, no structures have been found. And no repeats of the side scans. Faulty equipment? Natural geological structures misinterpreted? Why not? You can't just say 'oh look, those look like they are manmade, so they must be.'.

You always need to do your own research when you read stuff on Wikipedia, but it is often a good starting point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_in_t ... _of_Cambay

And it may well be though that the Harrappans did build on a submerging coastline and, as you would expect, moved inland as the sea levels rose.

It is all too easy to think you see artefacts where they don't exist.
http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/geofact.html

Doug, the piece of wood that I'm referring to was obtained in Feb. '07. It comes from a submerged well close to the shoreline. The interior of the well had beams of wood bolted in place as part of it's construction. A diver, under the supervision of archaeologists, went down and cut a piece of one of those beams. This means that the wood is in situ.

I understand that samples were sent to 5 labs for dating, and I keep looking for any results. And I repeat, since the well was close to shore, it may date to a more recent time than an artifact farther out.

The wiki article makes it sound as if there probably is a city submerged there. But some of the questions by Paul H. (was the equipment functioning properly?) sound like clutching at straws and was probably written as a knee jerk reaction to Hancock back in '02.

In the past five years the area has had many scientists studying it. Additional side scan sonar has been done. Many more artifacts have been brought up. When I find more time I'll post some pics. BTW - someone called those net sinkers a natural formation. That's really funny.

There is most probably a city there. the dating is the question. It could possibly turn out to be the lost city of Dwarka.

[DougWeller]

I didn't know about the 2007 wood. Thanks for explaining that. And yes, if there is a city there it is almost certainly Harrapan given that the images matched very well with Harrapan architecture. So much younger than Hancock's claims.

[DougWeller]

Ya, who getsta define a city. Hodder didnt try. But Sass caculates that when agriculture came in, the amount of land needed to support a group shrank by a factor of 500. This allowed an unprecidented number of people. In the same era when Jericho was a village of a few hundred, the Anatolian cities ran in the thousands.

Thats why they didnt need defensive walls. Aggressive nomad or hunting tribes could only put 75 warriors on the field. Attack a place like Hacilar, and they come swarming out like hornets.

I dunno why it dont dawn on Hodder, but they dont need streets cause they use the smoke holes in the roof to come and go. This results in a deep well of cool air to live in during the long hot summers. But completely draft free during winter.

Another reason to call it a city is that it was an industrial zone. Hodder reports that most of the houses were in the business of making obsidian points. I've seen a report on one of these operations that produced points in 2 different styles. One preferred down in the Levant, the other in Europe.

International trade 10,000 years ago. Another hall mark of a city.

Regarding the Great Flood, I have a national Geo map of the land as well as the bottom of the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara. There was also a report posted on the net, and a sci channel presentation on a peculiar fault that runs from East to West across Northern Turkey, which plunges into a rift valley seen in the Sea of Marmara bottom.

The National Geo Map also shows a delta on the ENE end where the Euxine lake had dumped in using the Sakarya river valley. Plate tectonics has changed the elevation in that region dramatically over the millennia. Perhaps you recall a quake which resulted in a Sea of Marmara resort dropping 2 meters into the sea. Photos of the resort resturant umbrellas sticking up outta the water were commonly posted.

I've yet to see a definitive reconstruction of the ancient topography. Perhaps because it'd be damn difficult. And one of the problems is the above mentioned fault, which goes over like dominos... but each domino waits 20 years before it goes over. And each domino that goes over, increases the strength of the quake.

One of the things that would have happened before the Bophorus opened up in Ryan & Pitman's scenario, is that because the sea level rose so fast in this era, the quake would have disrupted aquifers, and they would have begun leaking sea water north. This would have made the springs in the Euxine lake basin gush like artesian wells.

And *this* is *EGZACTLY* what it says happened in the Torah. None of the other "Great Floods" that have been proposed would have had this.

You don't get international trade before there were nations, but that's a minor point.
However, you do get long distance trade without large settlements, so long distance trade does not a city make.

And if a manufacturing site makes something a city, then I can show you some areas in the Lake District that must have been cities even though there were no permanent structures. Again, that doesn't make a city.

As for something not 'dawning on Hodder', Hodder knew perfectly well how the inhabitants moved around. It might be best to read what someone says before commenting on them.

And, finally, the evidence for a sudden Black Sea flood seems very dubious now, the claims shouldn't just be trotted out without noting that there has been a lot of research since then and a lot of debate about it.

Doug

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] Regarding the Great Flood, I have a national Geo map of the land as well as the bottom of the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara. [...]

Can you post that map please, db?

[...] There was also a report posted on the net, [and a sci channel presentation] on a peculiar fault that runs from East to West across Northern Turkey, which plunges into a rift valley seen in the Sea of Marmara bottom. [...]

Do you happen to have a link to that report, db?

[...] The National Geo Map also shows a delta on the ENE end where the Euxine lake had dumped in using the Sakarya river valley. [...]

Again, posting the actual image would support that, db.

[Digit]

Loved the comment about the net sinkers Beag. On another thread I pointed out to Doug some reasons for my doubts on some 'Experts' and your post is typical of the lame excuses that get trotted out.
If their 'Spin' ability is a guide to their intelligence they should give up both jobs!

[DougWeller]

Loved the comment about the net sinkers Beag. On another thread I pointed out to Doug some reasons for my doubts on some 'Experts' and your post is typical of the lame excuses that get trotted out.
If their 'Spin' ability is a guide to their intelligence they should give up both jobs!

It is clearly Hancock who is giving the spin.

Doug

[Beagle]

Many people on both sides of this discussion made quick and sometimes silly statements back in'02.

Hancock has nothing to do with the current discussion. Neither does anybody who says that the equipment might have been faulty. NIOT is conducting a long term marine excavation of the site. It will take many years.

Can't hardly wait.

[Digit]

Neither does anybody who says that the equipment might have been faulty.

Doesn't stp 'em though does it Beag?
Like I said, if the evidence doesn't fit pre conceptions, rubbish it!
Anybody know if any unversities in the States actually lecture on pre Clovis for example?

[Beagle]

Anybody know if any unversities in the States actually lecture on pre Clovis for example?

Dig, without checking, I feel sure that Texas A&M does. That's where the Center for the First American is at. I'm sure there are more.

I wish Charlie were here for this, he could tell you a lot more. And a lot more about the dating technology.

[Digit]

I'm glad to hear it beag, but I'll bet there are some that don't. Over here of course it is a non subject!
I've only managed to trace one article for British consumption on the subject for some years.

[DougWeller]

I'm glad to hear it beag, but I'll bet there are some that don't. Over here of course it is a non subject!
I've only managed to trace one article for British consumption on the subject for some years.

That's not surprising. Even in the US it will be a minority interest for archaeologists. Which shouldn't be surprising either. I know my alma mater (Yale) concentrates on Old World archaeology, there are probably departments which only deal with historical archaeology, etc.

Doug

[Digit]

That does surprise me Doug, personally I don't give a damn if 'Adam' was American, Chinese, or Polenesian, just as long as we find out and America must be seen as the place to research. If only to disprove an early history.
The history of mankind is all men's heritage.