Indus Valley Civilization.

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Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:05 pm

War Arrow wrote:Matriarchal societies. Again.
Am I missing something here?
Indeed, WA, it's that same ol' shtick.
She's angling for newbs again.

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daybrown
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Post by daybrown » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:08 pm

kbs2244 wrote:Most nomadic societies I have heard of seem to have been pretty male dominated.>

Most are male dominated. But does that mean all possible ones are?
<But you are saying the Aryans assimilated into the Indus divination because it was female dominated?>
No.
Somehow, that does not seem very likely to me.
Just like today, there are English speaking businesses operating in cultures all over the world that *never* had an English speaking soldier's boot hit the ground. Mallory says, and I cited him, but let me try one more time. The Aryans were *NOT* conquerers, but *assimilators*. They adopted useful bits of culture wherever they found it, and then delivered it to other regions. Thus we all know what a Karoke machine is.

It makes the Aryans look as if they invented everything. But largely because they were matriarchic, they didnt have the usual "not invented here" attitude twards new cultural traits.

Surf the Mosou of SW China. They still have all the hallmarks of matriarchy which we see in the artifacts and ruins of many Silk Road towns, and going all the way back to Chalcolithic Europe. They still have the same kind of large communal houses owned by the grandmothers. Who also own all the businesses. They dont have marriage as we know it, but live polyamorously. Mallory says there is no PIE word for marriage.

The Chalcolithic tels show large communal houses. The tels also revealed female figures in postures of authority, but no such male figures. They had dolls, dollhouses, doll furniture. Obviously, girls were valued.

And there are bits and pieces of the Danubian matriarchic culture spread east by the domestication of the horse all the way to China. Whatever else the Amazons were, they included nomadic horse people. The horse liberated smart women just like Smith & Wesson did today. It no longer mattered how big and strong the warrior was.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.

Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:55 am

When will they air the NG documentary, db?

8)

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Post by kbs2244 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:05 am

Large communal houses do not sound very nomadic to me.

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Post by Beagle » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:22 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappan_architecture

Speaking of houses KB, the houses in Harappa were more advanced than any of their time.
Houses were made of sun dried or kiln fired mud brick. These bricks were so strong, that they have stood up to thousands of years of wear. Each house had an indoor and outdoor kitchen. The outdoor kitchen would be used when it was warmer (so that the oven wouldn’t heat up the house), and the indoor kitchen when it was colder.
And this city had a population of around 50,000. Pretty amazing.

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Post by Beagle » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:34 am

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/a ... n_toi.html
Dr Rajaram feels the most important consequence of the Aryan invasion is fixing the period in which the Vedic literature came to be composed. According to the invasion theory, this would have to be placed at the end of the Indus civilization. But this, Dr Rajaram stresses, leads to many inconsistencies, going by evidence coming to the fore from diverse disciplines like ancient mathematics, astronomy, computer science and archaeology
History is now finally moving past the Eurocentric views of Max Mueller back in the 1800's. In fact, at the end of his life, Mueller recanted and stated that the Aryan Invasion Theory was wrong. But Eurocentrism had a life of it's own.

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Post by kbs2244 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm

This goes back to the theory that the old “civilizations” were independent developments. That is something I think is just plain wrong.
It goes back to our argument about early long distance, open water, travel.
All of these civilizations were at, or near, the mouths of large rivers. The transition point of a land based trader and sea based traders.
Coincidence? I doubt it very much.
These civilizations were connected, if not by governments, then at least by that most basic of human desires. “How do I make a profit?”

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Post by Digit » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:52 pm

You're on my wave length KB. A group settles down and need food and water, a river supplies both. The settlement becomes a town and eventually a city, the river still provides food and water plus waste disposal and transport. Is there a better type of site? I think not.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by Minimalist » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:29 pm

Is there a better type of site?

Not until the rainy season.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by kbs2244 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:15 pm

The river provides a transportation route into the land mass.
The interior provides flat land for farming food or textile raw materials.
Pastures for grazing.
Mountains for mining.
The sea provides fishing, trade routes to people that don’t have what you have but want what you do have and happen to have what you want but don’t have.
There is a real basic reason why, all around the world, rivers were the choice of a place for a city.
Some, like Babylon, may have been upstream a ways. But they were at the point that a seaworthy ship could no longer go. Rapids, shallows, twisting current flow, etc. stopped them.
Look at New Orleans (Poverty Point is just upstream). Why build a city in a such a bad swamp that the city streets are now 15 feet below river level? Because that swamp was a transition point. One kind of trader at the limit of his comfort zone and moving the goods on to another who was the limit of his, just in the other direction.

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Post by Rokcet Scientist » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:18 pm

kbs2244 wrote:
The river provides a transportation route into the land mass.
A transportation route for trade implies cargo hauling.
Well, then you'd better either have big, strong, domesticated oxen, horses, or camels, and looong ropes, to pull you upstream, or a viable sailing technology.
Out- and inboards were out of the question, right? 8)

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Post by daybrown » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:18 pm

Tripolye, on the Dneiper, is instructive. 1000 years older than Semetic Ur, it dates from the classic Aryan Amazon era. 9 times larger than Ur. But all of it was timber frame. All that is left now are the charred post stubs in the ground in what now looks like a cow pasture along the river.

Perhaps because of the fire hazard, there seem to have been separate areas up or down a km or so for particular activities. Livestock barns, corrals, tannery, pottery, weaving, etc. Chaotically abandoned, moved, or re-established, no doubt reflecting the profit motive.

It is regarded as a late Cucuteni community. Gimbutas shows us an early Cucuteni pot with the image of a plank hull sailboat. 4800 BC. So, of course they could sail down to the Black Sea. But up river a ways, it forks in several directions, among which are some further north with short portages to the Nemunus & Daugava on to the Baltic.

And if you have oxen, then over land on the Steppes that go all the way to Mongolia as well as some fertile valleys running south twards India.

Agreed that nomads dont live in communal houses. But I wrote that what kept Aryan culture together was the merchant class, which did have such large houses in the various cities that they did business from.

And in this era before the evolution of virulent STDs, women were willing to trade sexual services for many other services, and therefore had a far lower cost of management and far greater profits. Now that safe sex techniques have been worked out, we can expect a return of that business model.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.

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Post by daybrown » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:20 pm

<Speaking of houses KB, the houses in Harappa were more advanced than any of their time.>
What are the dates?
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.

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Post by Digit » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:15 am

There is a real basic reason why, all around the world, rivers were the choice of a place for a city.
Your list is the reason. No other form of site offers so many advantages.
There may have been occasions when settlers found a compelling reason for an alternative, astride and important trade route for eg, but overall the number of settlements on rivers is its own proof, and the reason why for many early settelments we must look under the sea.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by kbs2244 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:29 am

Back in my traveling days, I used to do some casual looking into the history of the cities I would visit. Generaly, I like to know just "why is this town here".
Most were pretty easy. They were ports, portages around rapids, close to a fall line that provided power for mills, a pass through the mountians, a fork in a river, etc.
But I was always confused by Atlanta. It is in the middle of nowhere, with no natural reason to be there.
Then I found out it was at crossing point for an east/west and a north/south railroad. In fact they still have locals who used the term "mile 23 north" to mean 23 miles north of the crossing. (That crossing is now underground, "Underground Atlanta". But the CNN toower, the football stadium, and the tradeshow place are all built around it. If you are at a trade show there, you can feel the never ending trains going by on the other side of the wall.)
Trade drives city locations. Even Tomboccctou and Katmandu. God knows the only reason to go to such a place is to make a buck.

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