Indus Valley Civilization.

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daybrown
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Post by daybrown » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:07 pm

i dont expect everyone to read everything I wrote, and I'm not always as clear as I hope to be. but to be clear, just a couple points.

1- "Aryan" was the term used for those who spoke Proto-Indo-European before the Nazi's coopted the term. I said so in a post already. I dont see any reason to stick by the Nazi distortion.

2- the Frescos at Chatal Hoyuk represent a far older, nomadic hunter tradtion that we see in rock art in the Sahara going back 20,000 years. The figures are dark because that was the pigment they had. They didnt care about trying to represent the color of the people, and in fact, far more artistry was involved in the depiction of the animals. A characteristic Curtis, in "The Cave Painters" comments on with French & Spanish art going back 40,000 years.

3- the Anatolian cities, as Hodder comments in "The Leopard's Tale" had some sort of ritual with skulls, and in some cases these skulls were plastered to restore a lifelike appearance. With white plaster.

The Anatolian frescos have many scenes of violence and even torture of animals, but in the 7th mil, all that artwork stops. There's a shift from the 2 dimensional painting to 3 dimensional work such as the skulls mentioned above, or the plastering of cattle skulls in sacred spaces, that are always referred to as bulls. However, that deserves some examination. Hathor, one of the earliest divine figures we know of, was the *cow* Goddess.

And of course, we have the famous seated goddess found at Hacilar. seen at http://www.dc-pc.org/artifax/artifax.htm; she also looks pretty white. Bronze age goddesses in the region were commonly rendered with gold for hair. Minoan figures uniformly have black hair. A red ochre color is selected if the figure represents some outdoor life. The Goddess holding the snakes has a really nice tan on her face and neck, but her arms are white.

But all of this is beside the point, representing the Nazi distortion of who the Aryans were. There was a *lot* of diversity from the Jade Gate of China to the Atlantic, & from southern Siberia down to the Indus. In the era of the Aryans, not that much was known, or propagandized about race.

The important factor about the Aryans was not that they were white, but that they were matriarchic.
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Post by Ishtar » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:06 pm

daybrown wrote:i dont expect everyone to read everything I wrote, and I'm not always as clear as I hope to be. but to be clear, just a couple points.

1- "Aryan" was the term used for those who spoke Proto-Indo-European before the Nazi's coopted the term. I said so in a post already. I dont see any reason to stick by the Nazi distortion.
You're missing the point, Daybrown. Nobody ever spoke the PIE language that the linguists invented. It's not an old language. It's a totally artifically created one....just like the Aryans, who were in fact spiritually progressed "arya" and not a superior tribe that conquered or migrated into India, bringing the Vedas with them.

There may have been fairer skinned peoples around, but they were not Aryans. And matriarchy was the norm right across many different races, not just this one.

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Post by daybrown » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:04 pm

Douglas Adams, "Tocharian Historical Phonology and Morphology", JP Mallory, "in Search of the Indo-Europeans", Ballantinee & Oswald "Did the Proto-Indo-European Priesthood commit Treason", works by M. Gimbutas, and Joseph Campbell, *all* assume there was a prehistoric population that spoke a common language, were into agriculture and stock raising, and had a common cosmology.

Its a fairly straight forward and robust procedure to enter the vocabularies of the Aryan languages into a computer, program the rules of etymology, and have the print out of both the PIE lexicon & grammar. Adams makes extensive use of PIE in trying to explain Tocharian.

Tocharian was not invented in what is now NW china out of the blue. It is a direct descendant of the original Aryan, with very few loan words from any other language, and retains it grammatical rules intact. Which are curious to say the least.

Gimbutas knows the cosomolgy, but is too prudish to understand the sexual customs. She knew they came from someplace East of Rumania, and suggests the region between the Urals and the Caspian. Mallory takes her to task on this, pointing out the many Aryan words for an important freshwater fishing industry.

Ballantine & Oswald collected, in a remarkable feat of scholarship, clips of wardrobe and ritual from German, Latin, Greek, Persian, & Indian sources. Its too bad they didnt know about the Tocharians. But anyway, they look at the astrology, then generate a computer printout of solar & lunar eclipses from the middle of the 6th mil, when they know some great event happened. They were wrong about it being a religious rebellion, but Ryan & Pitman didnt publish until way after all the above authors- to outline, in "Noah's Flood", the mid 6th mil BC flood of the Euxine lake basin replacing fresh water with salt.

Ballantine & Oswald cite the sanctions agaist the priestly class against using bloody weapons, and think the women's attire (eg, the lace the pope wears, and the hat he wears to hide a beehive hairdo) is some kind of punishment for a failed rebellion. Had they looked at the Tocharian sources, they would've realized the Aryan religious leaders were all women.

Since the academics who've looked at all this for years have all been embedded in a patriarchic culture, they dont really understand what they are looking at in trying to figure out the Aryans.

Gimbutas, for instance, shows us lotsa "Phallic Wands". But I've seen porn flicks, and I know dildos when I see them, and can see that Gimbutas just dont get it.

Other sources have shown that the Scythians had a transvestite priesthood, where the men discovered a potion extracted from pregnant mare's piss that had so much estrogen in it that it made them loose their beards and develop what fags now call "puppy tits". Why did they do this?
Ballantine & Oswald didnt know that men were banned from the priesthood. They dont seem to be aware that there are *still* such transvestite priestesses in the temples of Kali in India who are also midwives and matchmakers.

There is also a notorious Hindu ritual in which husbands leave their wives to sleep with these transvestites. Where did this come from? One clue are the hymns to Kali by 18th century saint Ramprasad. The cosmology he outlines is entirely consistent with the original Aryan cosmology outlined by Gimbutas in "The Language of the Goddess", which she reconstructs, in part, from the chalcolithic iconography of the original Aryans in SE Europe.

If it walks like a duck... they have the same language, the same religion, the same sexual practices, the same agrarian & stock breeding, the same technologies, and the same artistic sensibilities; they are a "people".

They were NOT, BTW, who the Nazis thot they were.
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Post by daybrown » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:15 pm

I mite add, Istar, that I have a lot of obscure sources, and have not been limited by the group think of an academic history or archaeology department. I am free to express ideas that are too politically incorrect for a college campus.

I also got a degree in psych, and have read some of the work by Milgram, Bandura, Zimbardo, & Janis on the effects of perceived authority and group think that academics in history & archeology are blissfully unaware of that prevents them from seeing the forest for the trees.
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Post by Beagle » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:51 pm

Without getting into linguistics, and I have never seen linguists agree on anything, the direction of writing by the early Indic civilization is interesting. Their normal writing was left to right, as ours is, but in communications with trading partners (those to the west) they wrote right to left. They could adapt quite well to the language and writing style of their trading partners, and this resulted in some confusion for many years.

India had goods that could be gotten nowhere else, especially their textiles. India cultivated the first cotton, followed shortly thereafter by the Americas. This extensive trade network was in place as early as 4,000 BC.

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Post by Ishtar » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:22 pm

daybrown wrote:I mite add, Istar, that I have a lot of obscure sources,
I'll say! :lol:
daybrown wrote:
I have not been limited by the group think of an academic history or archaeology department. I am free to express ideas that are too politically incorrect for a college campus.


I also got a degree in psych, and have read some of the work by Milgram, Bandura, Zimbardo, & Janis on the effects of perceived authority and group think that academics in history & archeology are blissfully unaware of that prevents them from seeing the forest for the trees.
Honey, I've been fighting academia on this for more than 10 years and you don't need a degree in psych to see what's been driving them. I know all the people you cite at the beginning of your post before this one, and I could trade at least 10 more saying the opposite, and with just as good data to back themselves up, and we could go on forever like that. But have you been to India? And have you read the Vedas? These are the two key questions for me, and I'll tell you why.

What you've produced is a loose interpretation - not even a theory really as it's based on so few facts. There is very very little we know about these peoples and most of what we do know is an extrapolation of mythological stories from four books, known together as the Vedas, which, imho, are about 7,000 years old (academia disagrees with me on this too.).

I mentioned in another thread that I'm studying shamanism. I've also read the Vedas, and particularly the oldest book, the Rig Veda, which is comprised of the hymns and ritual of the shamans of that time as they prepare for a shamanic ceremony. They are not history books as such. However, because shamanism was sent underground by Christianity about 2,000 years ago and thus not widely understood, a whole industry has been built up based on the belief that the Vedas, and particularly the Rig-veda, are historical stories - and that's where most of the stuff you're getting is coming from.

The arya come from the Vedas. They were the spiritual, priestly class of Indian peoples. Also, we can see from studying the Vedas that these people were highly advanced in agriculture, botany, astronomy (and thus had navigation skills), healthcare and so on. They knew the speed of light. They knew how far the sun was away from the earth....etc etc. No wonder the white imperialists, who had only discovered these things relatively recently, were offended by the knowledge in these books and had to try and claim them for themselves. This search for the PIE homeland has been going on ever since, and the people at its forefront, in academia, are still white Europeans.

The main group of arya who were responsible for the Vedas were the Angirasa rishis from the Bharatha tribe who originally, some time after the ice age, migrated down through through the Himalayas and came across from the east of the subcontinent into the Punjab region. Some of the other books were written by the Bhrigus (fire priests) of the Anu tribe, who came into the Punjab from the Kashmir region. These were different tribes, not different races, - alll descending from the great patriarch, Yayati - although different tribes had developed, over time, slightly different physical characteristics and the Bharathas were slightly taller and fairer. I know all this because I've spent time in India studying under a guru who is considered, by the Indian people, to be the nation's foremost expert on the Vedas.

In a nutshell, if you really want to understand the 'arya', you need to understand Indian spirituality which derives from shamanism. Imho, you can only understand Indian spirituality by going to India and learning it there, as it's a completely different experience to just going to the odd yoga class in the West.

If you do that, then you'll understand how the Indians (as they are known today) must have written the Vedas, and that in fact, no-one else could have written it. You'll also see how laughable they find it that so much money, time and effort has been spent in the West on trying to prove that that the 'arya' were another race of people who invaded (OK migrated into) the Indian subcontinent from the north around 1200 BC and bringing the Vedas with them.

Women were perceived as much more powerful then and the Goddess was revered as much as "God". Many of the hymns of the Rig-veda were written by women. It was religion (men, mainly, trying to usurp the Goddess's powers) that turned everything patriarchal - but this was a worldwide phenomenen and not confined to that area of the world.

And yes,some of the ceremonial rites were to increase fertility, and there weren't the same perceived views about homosexuality then - I doubt there was even a word for it, unless the Western linguists have invented one!

Daybrown, I think you and I are closer on this that you may think. I'm just bringing in another angle that you may not have been aware of, and if you could bring yourself to stop calling these peoples "Aryans", then I think there's a good chance that harmony may break out between us!

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Post by Rokcet Scientist » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:03 am

daybrown wrote:
I have a lot of obscure sources
No lo contendere.

Hey, DB, one of those wouldn't be a crystal ball, would it?
I seem to have misplaced mine.

8)

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Post by daybrown » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:54 am

Yes, I do come at it from a much wider perspective, and apply the term 'Aryan' to a much vaster population, of which India only received the merchants who brought in the Vedic texts.

Merchants still do this kind of thing. Collect old books. Just as today, you can go into a business office anywhere in the world and find English documents, so also you could go into the records of Ancient India and find Sanskrit. But in both cases, the indigeneous population still spoke native tongues.

Mallory notes there is only one word for authority:"Raj". As in Raja, region, regina, aregon, [skt, eng, lat, grk], English speakers know a large set of derivative terms, garage, arrange, reign, regulate, manage... and no doubt you could do the same with Sanskrit or any of the other Aryan languages.

He also notes that you cant do this with "marriage". There is no Aryan term. This makes sense when you go back to look at their villages and see a few large communal houses rather than clusters of cottages. Its pretty well documented, that until they became Christianized, the Vikings lived polyamorously in "Longhouses". There is a dig on an Island where the villagers cut all the trees to heat their cottages, but then had to give it up without fuel for the winter, and these were replaced with a single Viking long house that could be heated on driftwood alone.

Before the advent of chainsaws, it was a big deal. I was born on a farm in Minnesota in 1939, and remember the firewood effort.

Douglas Adams reports that there is no singular personal female possessive case in Tocharian, arguably the purest derivation of Aryan. Anyway, this means that a woman cannot say it is "my baby", only "our baby". That speaks volumes to me about where these people were coming from. He also notes the imperative case is nearly absent.

It seems to be limited to "Pick me up!" or "Gimmee!", the kind of thing kids hear, but one other- "speak!" or "speak up!" Again, characteristic of matriarchy that seeks consensus rather than demanding obedience.

Were it only the language, it'd be dubious. But in the Maitreyasamiti Texts we see the queen discuss the problems of properly performing traditional rituals. This makes it clear that *SHE* is the head cleric. She is a "Raj", which is to say, a "witch". And if you speak the terms you can hear the similarity.

And the people in her graveyard are buried in the same kind of closely tailored clothes seen in the figures from the Chalcolithic era in SE Europe.
The twill blue jeans of the "Churchin man" are maroon, but any other 6'6" hunk would feel comfortable in them today. The DNA of the wool, the weaving technology, and the tailoring all trace back to the Danube.

India receives only the mercantile portion of Aryan culture. But the oasis towns just west of the Jade Gate were pioneered by Aryans, so here we see the entire culture from the queen on down to the shipping clerks in a remarkable degree of preservation.

They even found a casket for a Raj, made an extra 2 foot longer so she could wear her tall, black, conical flat brimmed *witch* hat that would pass without note at any Halloween costume ball. We also know that the brothels in Kucha were owned by the city, and therefore run by the Raj. There really was a "wicked witch of the East". Like Mae West said, "When I'm bad, I'm better."

There is this thread among Aryan women, that they will use their sexuality quite deliberately, and if you dont like it, you can go fuck yourself. Part of that is seen in Vatsyayana's Kama Sutra. But we see it again in the Taoist texts on ritual sex from the very same era. What's the connection? The Aryan women from Kucha in China, and in the cities of India.

We have the report of Xuan Zang, going from Kucha to India in the 7th century, and the detour he was told to make around the jackass warlords that still run parts of Afghanistan & Pakistan. They knew this because it was a well known journey- known to the Aryan merchant class.

If you are going to write in clay, going right to left works; but if you are going to write in ink, a right handed scribe wants to go from left to right so she dont smear the ink. The mosque in Istanbul was originally dedicated to Saint Sophia, who had been the goddess of wisdom. But if you trace back further, you find that she came down from the north with the Dorians as the Goddess of the Birch.

The Goddess of the Birch gave us writing. And the Tocharians used to import birchbark to write on, in ink, with a goose quill, from left to right.

As Istar says, they were a very scattered diverse bunch, and as Mallory says, they assimilated rather than conquered, But in doing so, their own culture underwent continuous fads just as ours does. Trying to sort out all the threads is impossible, but there is a fabric in it nonetheless. How tightly woven is an issue of constant debate.
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Post by Ishtar » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:04 am

Dear Daybrown

I thought we were closer to the Daybreak than Daybrown, but it seems I was wrong.

daybrown wrote:Yes, I do come at it from a much wider perspective, and apply the term 'Aryan' to a much vaster population, of which India only received the merchants who brought in the Vedic texts.
This is utter bollocks and supported by nothing. The texts you mention are much much later than the Vedas, and the Kama Sutra is positively modern.

Added to that, you seem to have an obsession with women's sexuality and brothels, and I can just imagine you typing this crap with one hand whilst your other is otherwise engaged.

Tell you what...why don't you just go to a brothel..or several, all in one night. Get out and have a life - and give your right hand a rest.

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Post by daybrown » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:46 pm

Well Ishtar its real simple. There are two ways to control the behavior of men: sex or violence. Pick one.

For 5000 years we've had the violence of the warrior class, each generation with weapons a little more powerful. And now we got nukes, and its time to look for another method.

lets not forget that the history we receive is actually "his story", written by the scribes pandering to the alpha male egos in charge. Now, how do we get by the bullshit to see what was actually going on? How much of what you think went on is simply there because of group think?

People attack my lechery all the time, but they dont attack my sources or provide the links to data that contradict what I have said. At best, what I see are the *critiques* of some author rather than the evidence and artifacts from the digs to prove the source was wrong.

I have the freedom, living alone in the woods to write whatever I see as the truth without regard for how it offends your, or anyone else's sensibilities. Nobody hasta step up to defend me in order to prevent some slur on their own reputation.

Following the advice of Epictetus, if you have other links or sources to bring to my attention I will be grateful to receive a more realistic understanding of what went on. But as to my, or your, sexual proclivities, I could care less. I dont see why anyone else would be interested either.

A new factor in all this is the evolution of porn. Playboy recently had a spread on the virtual reality bimbos in video games. Its all in the mind Ishtar. You dont havta look too close to see that the avatars have pubescently long legs with fairly modest breast sizes. I've seen the morphing software where a geek could dress up, or down, any female figure he wanted. In addition to making the legs longer, he can shrink the tits, remove pubic hair and make her look like she's the same age as Mohammet's last wive: 9 years.

Child porn? Well no. There's no *child*. Its thot crime you have in mind. I dont think the women of today's generation realize why they are not getting the attention from young men. There are remotely controlled vaginal orifice designs to go along with the Internet whore. things have moved way beyond the inflatable bimbo. All those dudes suffering from arrested social development wont be looking for wives.

As a result, monogamy is history. At today's depressed wages, the dudes can afford the porn and the robotic fantasy, but not a wife an family. Dr. Laura says, "You picked him honey." But the pickings get slimmer every year.
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Post by Beagle » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:20 pm

DB - an off topic question - I think you used to post at Anthrotech, and I notice that it is closed indefinately. What happened over there? A note says that spammers are the cause, but they are in every forum. Any idea?

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Post by Ishtar » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:26 pm

Beagle wrote:DB - an off topic question - I think you used to post at Anthrotech, and I notice that it is closed indefinately. What happened over there? A note says that spammers are the cause, but they are in every forum. Any idea?
I expect they all got bored reading Daybrown's bad porn.

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Post by Ishtar » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:33 pm

daybrown wrote:
People attack my lechery all the time, but they dont attack my sources or provide the links to data that contradict what I have said. At best, what I see are the *critiques* of some author rather than the evidence and artifacts from the digs to prove the source was wrong.

Following the advice of Epictetus, if you have other links or sources to bring to my attention I will be grateful to receive a more realistic understanding of what went on. But as to my, or your, sexual proclivities, I could care less. I dont see why anyone else would be interested either.
Honey, you don't post any references for me to refut. You just wax on and on in your own fetid imagination, stayng just this side of legal. But I know writing to jerk off to when I read it.

Your posts don't offfend me in because of their sexual content. What offends me if how you try to pass off bad fiction as the truth in order to pursue your own sexual fantasies. That, in my book, is serious.

You're a sick man, Daybrown.

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Post by Beagle » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:35 pm

:lol:

I can see, Ishtar, that you two will not agree on a great deal. Especially the AIT, which I am certain is a defunct theory. You're both interesting people however, and might find some mutual ground, you never know. 8)

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Post by Minimalist » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:16 pm

Oh that seems unlikely, Beags. But, yeah...."interesting" works for me.
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