otzi

ravenwing5910 · Post by **ravenwing5910** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:29 pm

Though many good scenarios have been brought up in this discussion, I am still leaning toward a territorial skirmish of some sort and Oetzi's body simply fell into a place where his comrades (if victorious) could not find him. I just don't see "highway men" staking out such a location, I also tend to think of them as more up-close and personal in there attack such as a blade between the ribs, more of a face to face sort of thing. An arrow in the back and a blow to the head just seems more like a battle scene than a robbery.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:12 pm

Sure, I'm just guessing. I'm bothered by the fact that the shaft of the arrow that struck him was removed. That should have been obvious, as the shafts in his quiver were preserved in the cold.

Raven, Oetzi was found with a bow and with a quiver of shafts with no points affixed to them. Perhaps he had already fired his other arrows but he didn't seem very battle-ready I don't think.

Still a mystery.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:14 pm

Obvious.

Its the earliest known evidence of the Dept. of Homeland Security intercepting one of them "terrists" at the border.

Hoka Hey

john

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:25 pm

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:48 pm

ravenwing5910 wrote:Though many good scenarios have been brought up in this discussion, I am still leaning toward a territorial skirmish of some sort and Oetzi's body simply fell into a place where his comrades (if victorious) could not find him. I just don't see "highway men" staking out such a location, I also tend to think of them as more up-close and personal in there attack such as a blade between the ribs, more of a face to face sort of thing. An arrow in the back and a blow to the head just seems more like a battle scene than a robbery.

One TV special, which held to the battle scenario...either attacker or defender, they couldn't make up their minds, mentioned that there were other types of blood on Oetzi's clothing. He'd been fighting with someone and gotten in his licks.

So, was he pursuing the attackers....or was he one of the attackers, wounded and separated from his colleagues?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:49 am

Thanks Min, I was thinking I was the only one to have seen it. You did not mention that he had also received the classical defence wound to his thumb/index finger joint which would suggest that he was involved in hand to hand combat.
Having a similar wound myself I was very surprised as to how bad his injury was and the fact that it appeared to have been missed in earlier examinations.
That suggests to me that he was possibly involved in a mellee which would mean the head injury could have been caused then, and as I pointed out he could have survived for some time after that. Another point in that programme that cause me some surprise was the idea that it was the blow that killed him when they also reported that his corpse was devoid of blood and that there was no blood in any body cavities and they suggested it was all lost externally, surely that meant he die of heart failure, just how much blood could be lost once the heart stopped when you consider the small size of the arrow wound.
The hand wound seemed much larger to me.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:32 am

Beagle wrote:
Perhaps the thief was Oetzi, and the odject of great value was a religious icon of sorts. And the person/persons who chased him recovered it but chose not to steal from the dead.

Yeah, other than that he/they tried their damnedest to kill Oetzi, he/they really was/were (a) nice guy(s) . . .

Post by **Minimalist** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:40 am

Right, Beags. I forgot about the hand wound.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:39 pm

Digit wrote:
he was possibly involved in a mellee

A "mèlee" at 3,600 meters altitude in copper age Europe?

Even with todays 50 million wintersports fans in the Alps each winter, I can guarantee you the "mèlee's" at 3,600 meters altitude can be counted on 1 hand!
There's no oxygen for a "mèlee" at 3,600 meters altitude!

Post by **Minimalist** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:16 pm

They may have been more used to it than you.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:16 am

Who suggested 3600mtrs RS?

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:10 am

I recall that altitude mentioned when he was found in '91. It was far above the snow line.
I've been at that altitude maybe a dozen times. At that altitude you have to rest every 3/4 steps before you can take the next 3/4 steps. A fight is impossible: the first blow would exhaust you so much that you would collapse. The second blow would be 5 minutes later . . . A 'slomo' fight.
No, Oetzi did not 'wrestle' his assailant(s). It's physically impossible.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:54 am

You suggesting that any 'melee' took place at that altitude?

Sam Salmon · Post by **Sam Salmon** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:00 am

Rokcet Scientist wrote:I recall that altitude mentioned when he was found in '91. It was far above the snow line........No, Oetzi did not 'wrestle' his assailant(s). It's physically impossible.

Nonsense!

The person who found Otzi was a well acclimated mountaineer who had no trouble spending long periods of time at high altitude, what's to say the hunters of the day weren't the same?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:23 am

Sticking to known facts, he had somebody elses blood on his clothing and on his knife, he had a defensive wound to his hand, he had received a blow to the head and an arrow in his shoulder.
None of these injuries were immediately fatal nor incapacitating. The arrow had been shot from approximately 30 mtrs distance and entered his shoulder from below.
These are the facts.
None need be interpreted as having occurred immediately prior to death nor any where near we he died or was found.