Trying to fathom farming's origins

[Digit]

In Britain early agriculture was predominately animal husbandry rather that crop based.
But apart from grain, which was Barley for Beer rather than eating, other grains were grown for bread. Peas and pulses were also grown but much of that which was later cultivated was collected from their surroundings. There are dozens of wild foods available throught the UK, many of which are still harvested. Our list of edible fungi alone runs to many dozens, then there are cabbages, kale, beet, samphire, blackberries, gooseberries etc.
Till farming reduced the area of the 'Wild Wood', the ease of gathering would have made a lot of crop raising pointless.
Most of the harvest didn't go to the Lord Beag, what the serf, and slaves, and in certain cases, the 'Freemen', had to deliver was services, but this didn't arise until much later of course. Normally the Lord grew enough for his personal estate, but labour on the Lord's land was the usual service.

[Minimalist]

Cotton Balls? Kind of strange to believe people may have been wearing cotton textiles this early in history.

Difficult to imagine any other use for that particular plant though, isn't it? That is a most interesting finding.

[kbs2244]

RS; To take your points one by one.
City Building -
N A has plenty of sites. Most in the Mid-West and along the Gulf Coast. All are along rivers or creeks. Built mostly of wood because of the lack of local stone. Due to a more moist climate, we do not have the impressive remains of the Old World. But the Mounds and Pyramids still exist.
Nation Building-
We don’t know much about this. It appears to be a more trade related society than political.
Long Distance Trade -
All kinds of evidence. Lake Superior copper in Florida, and Gulf sea shells as far west a Idaho. South and Central American bird feathers in Ohio mounds.
The Wheel -
No evidence. But remember, N A has a lot more water routes, with easier portages when necessary, then Europe. With the ease of water travel, there just was little need for the wheel.
Writing-
Not in the alphabet sense. But what has survived the climate shows a pictograph type of communication was used.
Science -
The star orientation of the various mounds and “wood hedges” show they were pretty good at star gazing. The copper mining in the Lake Superior region show they knew how to dig deep and use heat to shatter rock. The trans-Florida canal, with locks, shows a surveying ability.
Sailing -
At least costal and through the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. Some pictographs show boats with sails, but there is argument over who were the sailors.
If you believe in pre Columbian trans ocean voyaging, then they would be showing African or European boats. But some of the pictographs are on the Arkansas River in Oklahoma. That is a long way from any coast.
Navigation -
Again, not much need. When most of your trade in over river systems, you can go by landmarks. But again, the Gulf/Caribbean trade would show the need of knowledge of the North Star at the least.
War -
See nation building. Not in a large scale sense. Maybe long term, multi generational, raiding and skirmishes. But no massed army evidence.
Organized Religion -
Lots of evidence. You don’t build effigy mounds and memorial tombs with out someone planning and supervising the project. There was a Priest class.
Copper -
Tons (literally) of it. Coast to coast in all four directions. Atlantic to Pacific, Gulf to Hudson’s Bay.
Bronze -
No. No tin.
Iron Working -
Small Evidence. Not much ore. But some small sites in the North East and Ohio areas.
Again, read “Guns, Germs, and Steel”. It is dated in some details. For sure about the Amazon basin. But the general thrust is sound. And he has N A pretty well documented.
Desoto’s bringing of small pox killed multi millions of people. They have found evidence of small pox wiping out whole villages as far as the Washington State, Pacific coast. (More evidence of long rang trade, since it pre dates any by sea contact.)
The continent never recovered before the Europeans showed up. The 200 years between Desoto and the Mayflower was enough to wipe out all but the largest and non-organic evidence. The survivors had regressed to true savagery. And the European ego would not acknowledge that these savages may have had a past on a higher plane.
So our historical view, vs. our archeological view, is very different.
You are right that the people found by the late 1600’s settlers in the North East were different than the Europeans of the time. But the people found by the Spanish in Desoto’s and Coronado explorations through the South East and South West, in the early 1500’s were very different from what the English and French found 200 years later.

[Digit]

Difficult to imagine any other use for that particular plant though, isn't it?

Damn good insulation though Min.

[Rokcet Scientist]

RS; To take your points one by one.
City Building -
N A has plenty of sites. Most in the Mid-West and along the Gulf Coast. All are along rivers or creeks. Built mostly of wood because of the lack of local stone. Due to a more moist climate, we do not have the impressive remains of the Old World. But the Mounds and Pyramids still exist.

If there are no remains of cities, claiming they existed is purely speculative.

Nation Building-
We don’t know much about this. It appears to be a more trade related society than political.

Neither impressively then.

Long Distance Trade -
All kinds of evidence. Lake Superior copper in Florida, and Gulf sea shells as far west a Idaho. South and Central American bird feathers in Ohio mounds.

On a puny scale compared to the old world

The Wheel -
No evidence. But remember, N A has a lot more water routes, with easier portages when necessary, then Europe. With the ease of water travel, there just was little need for the wheel.

More water routes? Then why didn't they develop sailing (in anything larger than a canoe)? Or navigation? Or seafaring?

Writing-
Not in the alphabet sense. But what has survived the climate shows a pictograph type of communication was used.

A level that old worlders achieved in the first half of the holocene and developed it very much since.
Not a peep in NA . . .

Science -
The star orientation of the various mounds and “wood hedges” show they were pretty good at star gazing.

And probably incorporated into their spiritual world: fairy tales! Not science! NA indians never had a Eureka moment where they realized stars can be used for astronomical navigation. That dime also never dropped in NA.

The copper mining in the Lake Superior region show they knew how to dig deep and use heat to shatter rock.

But they never caught on to the idea(s) how to make good use of metals.

The trans-Florida canal, with locks, shows a surveying ability.

There's no indication that was older than 500 or 1,000 years, max.

Sailing -
At least costal and through the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. Some pictographs show boats with sails, but there is argument over who were the sailors.

The evidence is extremely thin for that. Imo, it's speculative. But in any case it was negligible in scope, or we would know more about it, or found real evidence of it.

If you believe in pre Columbian trans ocean voyaging,

I do, but not BC, and not to NA (except maybe for a few St. Brendans; but no return voyages and no regular crossings).

then they would be showing African or European boats. But some of the pictographs are on the Arkansas River in Oklahoma. That is a long way from any coast.

Exactly.

Navigation -
Again, not much need.

Yes there is/was! Curiosity!
Curiosity drove much – possibly even most – of HSS' (geographic and scientific) development and discovery.
It appears NA indians couldn't care less! Which makes them a decidely different kind of HSS!

When most of your trade in over river systems, you can go by landmarks. But again, the Gulf/Caribbean trade would show the need of knowledge of the North Star at the least.

No, that's not enough. You need to know, and understand, how it moves, and where it's supposed to be at a given moment. So you need science, and writing (tables), and measurement tools.
They had neither.

War -
See nation building. Not in a large scale sense. Maybe long term, multi generational, raiding and skirmishes. But no massed army evidence.

Precisely. I.o.w. very different from the old world.

Organized Religion -
Lots of evidence. You don’t build effigy mounds and memorial tombs with out someone planning and supervising the project. There was a Priest class.

You're confusing organized religion with shamanistic religion.

Copper -
Tons (literally) of it. Coast to coast in all four directions. Atlantic to Pacific, Gulf to Hudson’s Bay.

Peanuts compared to the old world. And not used large scale for daily tool or weapon making and using.

Bronze -
No. No tin.
Iron Working -
Small Evidence. Not much ore. But some small sites in the North East and Ohio areas.

So it was vastly different from the old world in that respect too.

Again, read “Guns, Germs, and Steel”. It is dated in some details. For sure about the Amazon basin. But the general thrust is sound. And he has N A pretty well documented.
Desoto’s bringing of small pox killed multi millions of people. They have found evidence of small pox wiping out whole villages as far as the Washington State, Pacific coast. (More evidence of long rang trade, since it pre dates any by sea contact.)
The continent never recovered before the Europeans showed up. The 200 years between Desoto and the Mayflower was enough to wipe out all but the largest and non-organic evidence. The survivors had regressed to true savagery. And the European ego would not acknowledge that these savages may have had a past on a higher plane.
So our historical view, vs. our archeological view, is very different.
You are right that the people found by the late 1600’s settlers in the North East were different than the Europeans of the time. But the people found by the Spanish in Desoto’s and Coronado explorations through the South East and South West, in the early 1500’s were very different from what the English and French found 200 years later.

Absolutely. But moot, imo, since – afaic – we're talking about pre-columbian NA. The 10,000 years of the holocene that preceded CC.

[Digit]

I do, but not BC, and not to NA

Not again RS, if you won't accept my arguments try this!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... mbus.shtml

[Beagle]

That maybe so, Beag, but it 'only' pertains to the European 'dark middle ages'. I.o.w. from 500 AD to 1500 AD. That is less than 8% of the entire holocene! Hardly representative for the whole period, methinks. In fact not at all representative of that whole period!

Well, in that case, Europe was vastly inferior in agricultural techniques to NA. If you like I can post evidence of what I say if you'll do the same. If you can't back up all this conjecture and speculation about Native American history it might be best to drop it.

[Rokcet Scientist]

I do, but not BC, and not to NA

Not again RS, if you won't accept my arguments try this!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... mbus.shtml

Sorry, Dig, but what's that got to do with the price of rice?
That article discusses pleistocene NA humans. Not holocene NA humans!

[Digit]

It's to do with you refusing to accept the evidence of Atlantic crossings pre BC.

[Beagle]

I'm going to clutter up this discussion with some facts. So I'm sure they will be ignored.

During the Holocene, and in North America, the first corn (maize) was cultivated from wild grasses. This began 12,000 yrs. ago.

Then squash (pumpkins, zucchini, etc.) was developed into many cultivars, and then came beans. Along with the common bean, they developed the pinto bean, lima bean, red bean, etc.

These three plants were grown together, called companion gardening, which is very popular still today. Beans, for instance, replace the nitrogen in the soil that the corn takes up. These three plants keep the soil balanced and sustained. Actually the beans grow right up the corn stalks.

This was developed many thousands of years ago - in North America.

In addition, the NA's cultivated Tomato, Potato, Peanuts, Strawberries, Pineapple, Peppers (including Bell, Red, Chili), Sunflower seeds via the cultivation of a small flower, and others. Besides food, they also cultivated tobacco.

In the meantime, Europe cultivated absolutely nothing. These are the facts.

[Digit]

This obviously predates crop raising, in Britain at least Beag, what sort of plot size was used, any idea? Was it individuals, or groups working larger areas?

[Beagle]

That would depend on the size of the settlement Digit. And they always had enough to see them through the whole year. On the east of the Mississippi they lived in wooden lodges in settlements that may have thousands or maybe only hundreds of houses.

BTW - I don't mean to imply that crops weren't grown in Europe, I was talking about the cultivation of new foods. Cabbage, Broccoli, and Cauliflower were all grown in Europe but they originally grew wild. I think Turnips also, and I'm sure there are others.

[Digit]

The reason I asked about size Beag is that in the UK, and I believe uniquely so, the early farming was conducted by the same group size as was used by HGs, probably because they relied extensively on wild 'greens'.
Nearly all the vegetables we consume now were domesticated very late and were limited to what our climate permitted of course.
Since our entry into the EU and, mass immigration, our diet has changed and broadened very considerably.
Even such 'English' things as Apples came with the Romans, much that grew wild in mainland Europe simply didn't make here.
Diet before the late middle ages must have been pretty poor, much worse than in America I suspect.

[Beagle]

The diet was certainly adequate though. 6,000 yrs. ago Europeans were growing wheat and keeping cattle (living VERY close to them). So, in addition to wild vegetables they had bread, and beer, and meat. Not too bad.

They always had too grow enough wheat to feed the livestock over the winter, so they had to grow much more than the NA's. I prefer the way the NA's harvested their meat. You can't even call it hunting.

[Digit]

That's the clever bit Beag, our early farmers didn't grow that much in winter feed, they let them run loose.
Here in Wales it's still done with sheep and goats. Established flocks become 'Hafted', that is, they learn what their territory is and remain within it, and it seems to happen PDQ.
When we last had an outbreak of FMD old established 'Hafted' flocks were destroyed, and in Wales they seem to have learnt anew.
I have a feeling that common people's diet got worse in later times because when the feudal system was at its height the diet seems to have been mainly barley ale, fat pork and a disgusting pottage known as Pease Pudding!
There is certainly evidence that stature decreased as farming became wide spread.