Clovis/pre-Clovis

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:44 pm

http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... index.html

This site provides news and links about this subject. I notice some good articles and a link to a forum dedicated to this topic.

I'll be bookmarking it.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:41 am

Great site Beag and some very nice links. It'll take time to read through them all though. One comment I take issue with though is the line that the exploding comet could easily have wiped out the mega fauna, how exactly?

Leona Conner · Post by **Leona Conner** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:46 am

Great site for those of us interested in "Pre"-Clovis. Some of the links I looked at even have links. This ought to keep me out of trouble for a while (or maybe in trouble--depends)

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:16 pm

This ought to keep me out of trouble for a while (or maybe in trouble--depends)

A bit of both for us all I reckon Le.
Frankly I think it's time the 'Clovis pre-Clovis' argument was put to rest and a definition based on tool style, as here in Europe, was adopted.
The present definition gives a degree of importance to Clovis at the expence of other cultures.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:19 pm

Hi Leona, I agree. There is so much info. in this one website that I may post some of it in this thread. It's even got information about genetics, i.e.. Haplogroup X.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:19 pm

To all -

Clovis put everything into a nice little tidy box.

Well, ain't so.

The danger is,

pre-Clovis is another potential box.

I'll say that what we have is a maritime-capable set of communities - from both sides of north am. - who obviously "went and did".

What we do not have is approval from Das Klub.

Not that that means doodly squat...............

but nonetheless

do your homework,

without "Clovis" superstitions.

john

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:37 pm

Digit wrote:Great site Beag and some very nice links. It'll take time to read through them all though. One comment I take issue with though is the line that the exploding comet could easily have wiped out the mega fauna, how exactly?

I thought we had this discussion already?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:08 pm

Yeah, a couple of times. I'll put up a link tomorrow.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:02 am

Unless I missed some of the earlier I don't recall any explanation as to how the death toll came about. Certainly producing an ice age would do it but what about animals further south?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:12 pm

http://www.oregonlive.com/science/orego ... xml&coll=7

Archaeologists working in south-central Oregon's sagebrush steppes have found signs of some of the region's earliest inhabitants.

Researchers from the University of Oregon and U.S. Bureau of Land Management have uncovered four fluted projectile points and related artifacts at a remote site near Riley. The obsidian points could be 12,000 years old, but the archaeologists are being cautious about giving an exact age until they're able to obtain radiocarbon dates from the site.

"But these fluted points are very early, around the 11,000-year range," said Patrick O'Grady, an archaeologist with the UO Museum of Natural and Cultural History. "This is only the second site in Oregon where more than one of these kinds of points have been found, so it's special."

Fluted point in Oregon, a rare find that far west. From the Archaeologica Newsroom.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:08 pm

Digit wrote:Great site Beag and some very nice links. It'll take time to read through them all though. One comment I take issue with though is the line that the exploding comet could easily have wiped out the mega fauna, how exactly?

http://www.geo.sunysb.edu/openight/#hanson

The extinctions of the mega-fauna would have been a result of the impacts shock wave, then massive wildfires followed by a dramatic reduction of food associated with climate change.

This is a fair, although pretty general, article Dig. Scroll down to the Comet part.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:29 pm

Jeez.

Human population plus level of hunting technology vs. megasfaunal population density.

In my opinion, no way humans wiped out megafauna. Reason, human population density/hunting technology way too thin.

My opinion: Whatever hit the megafauna also hit the human population, i.e. they went down the tube together.

I think, in time, the evidence for this will ring true.

john

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:39 pm

In my opinion, no way humans wiped out megafauna. Reason, human population density/hunting technology way too thin.

I cannot think of a single example where indigenous people have hunted a species to extinction. HG populations do not seem to rise to the level that puts that kind of pressure on the land.

Of course, modern man seems to make that kind of exterminatory hunting an art form.

Anybody know of any examples?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:46 pm

Anybody know of any examples?

The first thing that comes to my mind is the bison. If not for gov't intervention, they would be extinct now. Massive herds of bison were a problem for the railroad companies, so they encouraged the wholesale slaughter.

Starved a lot of Plains Indians to death in the process.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:51 am

I'll follow that up Beag, thanks.
As regards the Bison I think they are a special case, as I understand they were deliberately removed as a means of controlling troublesome Indian tribes.