John:
I read Berry Fell’s and Gloria Farley’s books many years ago. They have always been in the back of my mind and colored many of the things I have read about NA history and archaeology since.
Berry Fell saw Ogham all over NA. At least from the Atlantic to the continental divide. I do not recall if there were any Pacific coast examples.
Gloria Farley documented and photographed numerous examples of the script in common with pictographs through out the NA west, but primarily in the Arkansas River watershed.
Others have documented it up the Ohio as far a West Virginia.
This is what grabbed my attention when I saw that there was a hand signal version of the script. I had never heard of it in any the descriptions of the script from either side of the Atlantic. The tie in to the Indian sign language was automatic.
I realize that the existence of Ogham script in NA is somewhat controversial. It upsets a lot of long held ideas as to when and by whom travel to and from NA from Europe, Britain, and Scandinavia began. But, like Los Lunas NM, the physical evidence is still there.
Fell and Farley are undoubtedly considered “fringe” by many. Particularly the Smithsonian, which you seem to have some kind of relationship with. I do not want this to seem like a personal attack, but an organization that old, with the political involvement it has had, the strong willed leaders it has had, and the relative lack of oversight it has enjoyed, must have a lot of skeletons (both figurative and literally) in it’s many closets. The conspiracy theories surrounding it are legend.
So, I guess I am saying that I do not expect a Masters Thesis to have been written on the similarities. Any comparison study, if one was ever done, would have most likely been done in and for the fringe market.
I mentioned Gloria Farley in the DNA thread. That was because of what she saw as clear Phoenician, Egyptian, and Carthaginian symbols in the pictographs she documented. The Ogham script in those same pictographs, if contemporary, would suggest a real cosmopolitan group of travelers.
And they would have been a real long way away from home. It would have made sense to make friends with the locals. Teaching the leaders and Shamans a way to communicate with each other despite spoken language differences would, I expect, go a long way in ensuring safe passage through what could have been very dangerous territory.
How is that for running a theory up the flag post?
Anybody want to salute it?
Or shoot at it?
Plains Indian Hand Signs
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
None of the above KB. But I have a tendency to shy away from Barry Fell. To me, he was more than just controversial. For instance, he maintained that some glyphs in West Virginia were Celtic Ogham and that they documented the birth of Jesus Christ. That is an example of how he saw Ogham everywhere he looked.How is that for running a theory up the flag post?
Anybody want to salute it?
Or shoot at it?
Only recently I've noticed that linguists and epigraphers come from many backgrounds. Fell, for instance , was a Professor of Zoology I think. Others may lack an educational background at all. And the disagreement among them is incredible. I would hesitate now to quote any of them as a source unless I've been able to verify that they have a credible background. As much as we bash the Club around here, it's nice to know that we're bashing the bureaucratic protectionism of the system rather than the credentials of the individual scientists.
I like your thinking on this but I disagree with Barry Fell. There have been other very prolific authors out there that just push their personal passion. Von Daniken was like that. He could, wherever he was at, turn and look in a 360' degree circle and find evidence of "ancient astronauts".
This is not to say that there wasn't a language diffusion from Northern Europe to the Americas. I just don't know.
Whoa;
Don't I see a bit of a self contradiction in your opinion of Fell?
Prolific and opinionated scholars can be wrong on some occasions.
But what about the times they are right? We cannot ignore the correct times just because of the wrong times.
After all, almost nightly, I watch multi millionaires swinging a bat. Seven out of ten times they are wrong, but they get paid well for the three times they are right.
Don't I see a bit of a self contradiction in your opinion of Fell?
Prolific and opinionated scholars can be wrong on some occasions.
But what about the times they are right? We cannot ignore the correct times just because of the wrong times.
After all, almost nightly, I watch multi millionaires swinging a bat. Seven out of ten times they are wrong, but they get paid well for the three times they are right.
I'm not trying to be disagreeable KB. It's just Fell has too much baggage in his past for me to take him seriously. I realize though, that he has his followers and many avid readers, even after his death.
You've probably read "America, BC". I find that too incredulous. Everyone here in this forum knows that I've got a pretty big hyperdiffusionist streak in me, so I'm not speaking as some orthodox conservative.
Barry Fell felt that all Native American, and even Polynesian, glyphs were based in Old World language, never considering that New World people could have invented their own writing. But more than that were his translations. He translated one ancient American glyph to be the Ten Commandments.
Too much for me I'm afraid KB.
You've probably read "America, BC". I find that too incredulous. Everyone here in this forum knows that I've got a pretty big hyperdiffusionist streak in me, so I'm not speaking as some orthodox conservative.
Barry Fell felt that all Native American, and even Polynesian, glyphs were based in Old World language, never considering that New World people could have invented their own writing. But more than that were his translations. He translated one ancient American glyph to be the Ten Commandments.
Too much for me I'm afraid KB.
All I can suggest is that you beg, borrow, or steal a copy of Gloria Farley’s book “In Plain Sight”. It will give you the background. Unfortunately, most of the diagrams are hand drawn from latex molds. She was not a photographer.
So then, if you can find it, a book called “Images in Stone” by photographer David Muench with captions by Polly Schaafsma. It is a coffee table book of photos of the Pictographs in the N A West.
The captions are pure mainstream, but the photos are just plain terrific.
Read the one while looking at the other.
To get an idea of what you are in for, and to show that it is not just a Farley/Fell concept, try these sights.
Ogham in Oklahoma
www.viewzone.com/ogam.html
Parts of Farley‘s book “In Plain Sight”
Www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm
Transcript of TV documentary
www.archaeoastronomy.com/transcript.pdf
Then tell me how much of a “hyperdiffusionist “ you are.
Meanwhile, I may have answered my own question about any relationship between hand signed Oagham and Indian Sign Language.
I don’t think there is one.
Hand signed Oagham appears to be a one handed “finger spelling” language.
The Indian Sign Language appears to be a two handed gesturing language embodying whole phrases.
So then, if you can find it, a book called “Images in Stone” by photographer David Muench with captions by Polly Schaafsma. It is a coffee table book of photos of the Pictographs in the N A West.
The captions are pure mainstream, but the photos are just plain terrific.
Read the one while looking at the other.
To get an idea of what you are in for, and to show that it is not just a Farley/Fell concept, try these sights.
Ogham in Oklahoma
www.viewzone.com/ogam.html
Parts of Farley‘s book “In Plain Sight”
Www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm
Transcript of TV documentary
www.archaeoastronomy.com/transcript.pdf
Then tell me how much of a “hyperdiffusionist “ you are.
Meanwhile, I may have answered my own question about any relationship between hand signed Oagham and Indian Sign Language.
I don’t think there is one.
Hand signed Oagham appears to be a one handed “finger spelling” language.
The Indian Sign Language appears to be a two handed gesturing language embodying whole phrases.
BTW, the West Virginia Oagham was not the Ten Commandments, it was directions for determining Christmas Day.
Dates to between 600 to 800 AD.
Check this site:
http://cwva.org/wwvrunes/wwvrunes_3.html
Pretty good photos.
One thing is for sure, from where they are located you can be sure that they are not “plow marks.”
Dates to between 600 to 800 AD.
Check this site:
http://cwva.org/wwvrunes/wwvrunes_3.html
Pretty good photos.
One thing is for sure, from where they are located you can be sure that they are not “plow marks.”