From Arch. News. This is a shame. But maybe now these things will get the attention they have deserved for many years.2,000-year-old Sumerian cities torn apart and plundered by robbers. The very walls of the mighty Ur of the Chaldees cracking under the strain of massive troop movements, the privatisation of looting as landlords buy up the remaining sites of ancient Mesopotamia to strip them of their artefacts and wealth. The near total destruction of Iraq's historic past – the very cradle of human civilisation – has emerged as one of the most shameful symbols of our disastrous occupation.
Evidence amassed by archaeologists shows that even those Iraqis who trained as archaeological workers in Saddam Hussein's regime are now using their knowledge to join the looters in digging through the ancient cities, destroying thousands of priceless jars, bottles and other artefacts in their search for gold and other treasures.
The Death of History
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
The Death of History
http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2970762.ece
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Rokcet Scientist
This brings up the whole “moral” argument of if it is better to leave thing in place waiting for an “expert, accredited, approved,” or whatever kind of guy, with funding that never happens, get to it or to let capitalism do it’s thing and get the stuff out of the ground.
I will vote for capitalism every time. If it is valuable it will be found.
I agree we lose the “context.“ But at least we have it to look at.
Look at the history of things that we wouldn’t know about if we had to wait for some “accredited” guy to find them.
Our shipwreck industry wouldn’t exist. And the ships would never be found.
Even the Dead Sea Scrolls were found by a less then teen boy.
The simple fact is that the population density of the Earth is going up too fast for these places to be “off limits.”
If a location is a good place to farm, put a city, or otherwise develop now, odds are it was in the past also. And artifacts WILL be found.
At the best, we can have an expert on call to check things out whenever the bulldozers find something. But they have to be the kind of guys that understand that time is money. They have to do their thing and get out of the way, or “show me the money” to stop.
The current state in this market is kind of like the US experiment with alcohol probation. It just is not working.
When there is a demand someone will fill it.
If we made possession and trade in these artifacts legal, we would get more of them to study. The people that are selling them wouldn’t be afraid to say when and where they found them. The collectors would let scholars examine them. That is more information then we are getting now.
I will vote for capitalism every time. If it is valuable it will be found.
I agree we lose the “context.“ But at least we have it to look at.
Look at the history of things that we wouldn’t know about if we had to wait for some “accredited” guy to find them.
Our shipwreck industry wouldn’t exist. And the ships would never be found.
Even the Dead Sea Scrolls were found by a less then teen boy.
The simple fact is that the population density of the Earth is going up too fast for these places to be “off limits.”
If a location is a good place to farm, put a city, or otherwise develop now, odds are it was in the past also. And artifacts WILL be found.
At the best, we can have an expert on call to check things out whenever the bulldozers find something. But they have to be the kind of guys that understand that time is money. They have to do their thing and get out of the way, or “show me the money” to stop.
The current state in this market is kind of like the US experiment with alcohol probation. It just is not working.
When there is a demand someone will fill it.
If we made possession and trade in these artifacts legal, we would get more of them to study. The people that are selling them wouldn’t be afraid to say when and where they found them. The collectors would let scholars examine them. That is more information then we are getting now.
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Forum Monk
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:37 pm
- Location: USA
Some places, you can't stick a shovel in the ground without hitting artifacts and often its "oh, some of those again!"
E.g. Remember Simcha Jacobvici and the Jesus Tomb uhhh revelation. At the time the initial discovery was considered, "oh, another tomb with ossuaries. Catalog them, file them away, and get on with the project." Its all too common in some places. I have known of some cases in certain regions of Europe where the project people refused to call the authorities because they could not suffer the project delays that undoubtably would follow a call to the antiquities ministry.
Not all finds are valuable. The problem is, unless some one with an insightful eye is looking, how will we ever know what has been lost forever? (or at best filed away in some dark warehouse)
E.g. Remember Simcha Jacobvici and the Jesus Tomb uhhh revelation. At the time the initial discovery was considered, "oh, another tomb with ossuaries. Catalog them, file them away, and get on with the project." Its all too common in some places. I have known of some cases in certain regions of Europe where the project people refused to call the authorities because they could not suffer the project delays that undoubtably would follow a call to the antiquities ministry.
Not all finds are valuable. The problem is, unless some one with an insightful eye is looking, how will we ever know what has been lost forever? (or at best filed away in some dark warehouse)
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Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16013
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
I agree we lose the “context.“ But at least we have it to look at.
I disagree with that. The item is nice but a real pro can tell more from a couple of broken bits of pottery if the looters will just leave them the hell alone.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
They do not exist.
What we now call “Native Americans” were nomads. They were hunter, gathers that roamed around. Boarders, if they existed, were in a constant stat of flux. War was never ending.
At the most these people may have had a good spot where they tended to spend the winter.
The “towns” that we have evidence of in Pre-European North America were either built and populated by a different group, or by the current Native American people in a pre-Small Pox environment.
Since the current “Native Americans” do not seem to have any traditions or legends of living in these cities, (indeed they have histories bragging of conquering the cities), I have to think there never were any “Indian Towns.”
What we now call “Native Americans” were nomads. They were hunter, gathers that roamed around. Boarders, if they existed, were in a constant stat of flux. War was never ending.
At the most these people may have had a good spot where they tended to spend the winter.
The “towns” that we have evidence of in Pre-European North America were either built and populated by a different group, or by the current Native American people in a pre-Small Pox environment.
Since the current “Native Americans” do not seem to have any traditions or legends of living in these cities, (indeed they have histories bragging of conquering the cities), I have to think there never were any “Indian Towns.”
Sorry about that.
Tahat post was meant for another thread.
That is my argument, Monk.
I know construction guys who now grab a 2 inch piece of copper pipe and throw it into a bucket in the truck. When the bucket is full they take it to the scrap dealer and get enough to buy a case of beer.
If the whole system didn’t let them do that, the copper would be forever buried. Of no use to anyone.
If we let the local labor guys grab the stuff before it was buried forever, at least we would have it. It may bounce around the marketplace for years before someone recognizes it for what it is, but at least it is out there to be found by guys that don’t get their hands into the dirt.
Again, check my history, but I believe this was the case for the Dead Sea Scrolls. The fragments bounced around the Jerusalem antiquities market until one of the traders thought they might be worth some this to somebody. He bought them on a gamble, had a professor check them out, and the rest is history. It would have never happened without a profit motive.
In today’s Israel, everybody from the sheppard boy to the professor would be under arrest. For trading in antiquities that nobody ever knew existed.
We can huff and puff about how it isn't right, but money makes the world go around.
Tahat post was meant for another thread.
That is my argument, Monk.
I know construction guys who now grab a 2 inch piece of copper pipe and throw it into a bucket in the truck. When the bucket is full they take it to the scrap dealer and get enough to buy a case of beer.
If the whole system didn’t let them do that, the copper would be forever buried. Of no use to anyone.
If we let the local labor guys grab the stuff before it was buried forever, at least we would have it. It may bounce around the marketplace for years before someone recognizes it for what it is, but at least it is out there to be found by guys that don’t get their hands into the dirt.
Again, check my history, but I believe this was the case for the Dead Sea Scrolls. The fragments bounced around the Jerusalem antiquities market until one of the traders thought they might be worth some this to somebody. He bought them on a gamble, had a professor check them out, and the rest is history. It would have never happened without a profit motive.
In today’s Israel, everybody from the sheppard boy to the professor would be under arrest. For trading in antiquities that nobody ever knew existed.
We can huff and puff about how it isn't right, but money makes the world go around.
