Homo Erectus/Neanderthal in North America?

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DougWeller
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Re: Something on topic now...

Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:34 am

FreeThinker wrote:The Solutrean-Clovis connection is an interesting theory. The similar morphology and knapping technique of cerain lithic materials is indeed striking. Also a genetic marker of the Ojibwa (I think it is the Objibwa) does indeed seem to match a northern European marker. There has even been a study of the concentration of Clovis discoveries across north America and the majority of Clovis sites are on the east coast. This is contrary to what one would expect if they (the Clovis peoples) had come over the Bering land bridge from Siberia.

Some problems with the theory include the total lack of Clovis art (the Solutrean's were prolific in their artistic output) and a several thousand year gap of time separating Clovis from Solutrean.

I personally think there is plenty enough evidence to move past the "Clovis first" paradigm but I am still cautious about embracing the Solutrean-Clovis connection. More evidence is needed to make that call I think.

See, now this post is on topic!
I think that 'Clovis first' is dead, even if it still has a few adherents.

I also think there is no good reason to believe that Clovis technology wasn't actually invented in America. The links with Solutrean technology are thin, there is lots of Solutrean stuff that isn't in America, there is the time gap, and the Solutreans didn't exploit the ocean and are thus unlikely to have sailed to North America.

Now the DNA -- the problem with what has been posted, and the BBC program, is that it is obsolete.

The whole story isn't clear yet, but what seems to be the case is:

1. Haplogroup x, which is what we are talking about, is found in Siberia.

2. It has different 'varieties', and the variety found in North American Indaisn isn't the same as in western Europeans.

3. It may have originated in the Middle East and gone both west, to Europe, and East to Siberia and North America.

What we know about Neanderthal DNA tells us modern man and Neanderthal's ancestors branched off hundreds of thousands of years ago, unless I've missed something, which is possible, it's hard to keep up with it all!
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Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:53 am

Beagle wrote:I have been reading a little about Virginia Steen-McIntyre. She is a geologist who discovered some artifacts in central Mexico that dated geologically to 250kya. This date was independently verified by the U.S. Geological Survey team I think.

That was twenty some years ago and she has had her career and professional reputation ruined. It doesn't speak well of the politics of Archaeology.
Um, she is a geologist, she made a mistake and handled it wrong. Nothing to do with the politics of archaeology, she isn't an archaeologist.

The date was not independently verified.

She was only a graduate student at the time, working on a temporary basis. It is hard to claim that her career was ruined by her mistake, since no one knows how successful she would have been otherwise. She was able to carry on work in her chosen field after graduation, so again, her career wasn't ruined.

She didn't discover the artefacts, she was involved in dating them. The archaeologist in charge of the excavation, and who published a report with those dates in them, also did not have her career ruined.

If you want more information about the dating methods, seehttp://tinyurl.com/p32ta
Doug
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Post by Beagle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:06 am

http://s8int.com/hueyatlaco.html

While I don't endorse this website, it gives the classic story of Virginia Steen McIntyre.

Since the death of "dagwood", archaeologists have returned to the site and are exploring it further. We may have more info in the future.

As I said, she is a geologist. This story points out what I meant by the politics of archaeology.

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Post by Beagle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:11 am

http://www.valsequilloclassic.net/

Even better yet, any interested reader can ask her directly about her experiences. This is posted with the permission of Virginias' webmaster, Steve LeMaster.

Many members names will be familiar, mine for instance.

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Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:00 am

Beagle wrote:http://www.valsequilloclassic.net/

Even better yet, any interested reader can ask her directly about her experiences. This is posted with the permission of Virginias' webmaster, Steve LeMaster.

Many members names will be familiar, mine for instance.
You can indeed. I think she still defends her dating. Others still disagree with her about the dating and her description of her experiences (and I don't want to get involved in that here, I don't think it's relevant). I of course know Steve as he is a regular Ma'at poster. He also had a site for Schoch for a while.

The Solutrean hypothesis is another example of the ironic fact that you can find 'wild' ideas at the heart of the establishment (presuming that fairly described the Smithsonian), it really isn't that monolithic.
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Post by Bruce » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:51 am

this may get off topic a bit but cro-magnon was a contempoary of neanterdal, he seems to be in northeastern europe about the same time. what's the chances of him coming out of america?

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Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:46 am

Bruce wrote:this may get off topic a bit but cro-magnon was a contempoary of neanterdal, he seems to be in northeastern europe about the same time. what's the chances of him coming out of america?
Cro-Magnon is just another term for modern man.
Recent finds suggest HSS and HNS may have coexisted in Europe for a few hundred years, but I'd be very tentative about that as they are based on 2 sets of finds and some dating that may be not quite as exact as they'd like.

But as I said, CroMagnon is modern man, out of Africa by way of the Middle East.
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Post by Beagle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:27 am

DougWeller wrote:
Beagle wrote:http://www.valsequilloclassic.net/

Even better yet, any interested reader can ask her directly about her experiences. This is posted with the permission of Virginias' webmaster, Steve LeMaster.

Many members names will be familiar, mine for instance.
You can indeed. I think she still defends her dating. Others still disagree with her about the dating and her description of her experiences (and I don't want to get involved in that here, I don't think it's relevant). I of course know Steve as he is a regular Ma'at poster. He also had a site for Schoch for a while.

The Solutrean hypothesis is another example of the ironic fact that you can find 'wild' ideas at the heart of the establishment (presuming that fairly described the Smithsonian), it really isn't that monolithic.

Yes, I know that Steve was Scochs' webmaster. Also the reason I got specific permission to post the url is because he is a member here too, although he hasn't posted. I didn't want to post it if he intended to.

What you and I call "wild" may be two different things Doug. Now - aliens from another planet, psychics like Cayce - I call that wild. :)

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Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:34 am

I deliberately put 'wild' in inverted commas and didn't simply write wild -- I couldn't think of another word, but I guess extraordinary might have done. I was trying to distinguish between as you say aliens, or Atlantis, or America as a crossroads for Phoenicians, Celts, Egyptians, (ie all of them).
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Post by Minimalist » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:55 pm

"Unproven" might be less prejudicial than "wild," Doug. :wink:
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Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:58 pm

Minimalist wrote:"Unproven" might be less prejudicial than "wild," Doug. :wink:
No, that is not what I mean. A lot of stuff in archaeology is unprovable but accepted as probable, I am talking about stuff which most archaeologists will say is improbable. Extraordinary claims, although note the the Solutrean thing is considered by Stanford (still, I think) to be a hypothesis needing more evidence.
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Post by Minimalist » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:37 pm

A lot of stuff in archaeology is unprovable but accepted as probable,

And, I actually have a problem with that. But it comes down to 'who' is deciding the probabilities.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by DougWeller » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:03 pm

Minimalist wrote:
A lot of stuff in archaeology is unprovable but accepted as probable,

And, I actually have a problem with that. But it comes down to 'who' is deciding the probabilities.
No, it comes down to the evidence first.
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Post by Beagle » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:08 am

Doug, speaking of evidence, what is your opinion of the Olmec heads in mesoamerica that appear to be Negroid? The Olmecs are conventionally dated to c1500BC.

I have had trouble finding orthodox opinions on that.

C'mon Doug, take a walk on the wild side. :lol:

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Post by marduk » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:16 am

they aren't representative of Olmecs
because the Olmecs didn't make them
:lol:
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