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[Beagle]

NOVA is on its way. A 435 meg file but its transmitting at a pretty good clip so far.

If you use McAfee's A-V software there may be a problem with getting pando to work. I have a workaround if needed.

One note about the show. They do a good job showing the Solutrean/Clovis similarity, but they didn't discuss the "red ochre" similarities. That would have nailed it I think.

[Minimalist]

but they didn't discuss the "red ochre" similarities

Would you expand on that thought because you're right. They did not mention it.

[Beagle]

I think we talked about before, but I'm referring to some unknown ritual in which Solutreans would cache some points and cover them with red ochre. Maybe some pre-hunt ritual. The same ting has been seen with Clovis points in a couple of places, I forget where.

I'll try to find the article. Probably tomorrow.

[Minimalist]

The Club will find a reason to dismiss that but I'd like to see the article.

Then again, the Club seems to be in full retreat on the clovis front.

[Beagle]

http://www.geocities.com/blobrana/features/american.htm

If we look at Clovis technology, and the Clovis technology of North America is relatively unique in the world, it's a bifacial technology. In bifacial, I'm referring to the fact that the artifact, here you can see that there are flake scars on this side of the specimen and when we turn it over there are flake scars on the opposite side - hence the name bifacial. And this is opposed to artifacts that are unifacial. Most of the classic Upper Paleolithic cultures of Eurasia are unifacial. There are some bifacial manufacturing technologies in that part of the world and one of them is the Solutrean. This is a replica of a Solutrean biface which is commonly found in France and down through the Iberian peninsula. It is older than Clovis but not that much older. This technology is very, very close to the Clovis technology. There are some differences but you do get the bifaces and you get caches. I think caches are important. In Clovis we find a lot of caches of these bifacial artifacts as we do in the Solutrean. The caches are normally associated with red ochre. We don't know the significance of the red ochre but they are both in Solutrean and Clovis.

This is not the article I was refering to Min, but it is a good blog by someone I don't know. I'll still find the original that I was referring to, but maybe not today, as we have our grandson over for the night.

I'll find it.

[Cognito]

Min, thanks for the gigantic file. I watched the movie last night and was also quite impressed. The movie, in addition to Beags' comments, brought me to cosider another purpose for the red ochre.

According to the program the Clovis point was fluted at the base and inserted in a slot at the end of a spear shaft. By so doing when thrown, the point would penetrate a large animal, lodging itself subcutaneously while the wooden spear would dislodge for continued use.

Red ochre is Iron Oxide (FeO), and is non toxic. However, iron oxide can be successfully used as a stabilising agent and to detoxify metallic poisons such as mercuric oxide or arsenic oxide which occur naturally in the environment (btw, those oxides are easy to spot).

My point? Putting poison on a Clovis point would be a natural way to bring down a large animal, just lodge a few points in a Mammoth and trail it around until it falls over for dinner. But you better make sure your points are cleaned with red ochre before and after the job is done or the handling will result in your hair falling out just before you get sick and fall over also.

I am skeptical about my red ochre hypothesis; however, I suspect that Clovis points were introduced as a technological breakthrough simultaneously with the atlatl. It makes sense to leave the point in the animal if you intend to poison it or coat the tip with some sort of hallucinogen ... anything to slow it down.

[Minimalist]

You're welcome, Cogs....having mastered the technique for a schmuck like Jacobovici it just seems better to use it for a good purpose!

However, iron oxide can be successfully used as a stabilising agent and to detoxify metallic poisons such as mercuric oxide or arsenic oxide which occur naturally in the environment (btw, those oxides are easy to spot).

It's hard to give a guy hurling a stone spear credit for a degree in chemistry but you never know. And some of those points were works of art.

[Forum Monk]

A couple of points about red ochre and hunting large game.

Wounding a large animal and then following it for miles and miles until it slowly croaks is not effective hunting. It is difficult and then you're often faced with the problem of dragging a several ton beast out of a thicket in order to butcher it or carrying hundreds of pounds of meat, skins, antler or whatever back home. Better to drop 'em where you're prepared to deal with them using a pit or trap or something and then administering the lethal injections (which now, need not be poison).

As for red ochre. I would tend to think it is not ritually applied as much as environmetally applied by ground water after the points were lost. Although, there is the possibility that Oorlat was tired of having his points stolen so he began marking them for identification.

[Charlie Hatchett]

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[Beagle]

http://www.s2nmedia.com/arctic/html/den ... nford.html

If we look at Clovis technology, and the Clovis technology of North America is relatively unique in the world, it's a bifacial technology. In bifacial, I'm referring to the fact that the artifact, here you can see that there are flake scars on this side of the specimen and when we turn it over there are flake scars on the opposite side - hence the name bifacial. And this is opposed to artifacts that are unifacial. Most of the classic Upper Paleolithic cultures of Eurasia are unifacial. There are some bifacial manufacturing technologies in that part of the world and one of them is the Solutrean. This is a replica of a Solutrean biface which is commonly found in France and down through the Iberian peninsula. It is older than Clovis but not that much older. This technology is very, very close to the Clovis technology. There are some differences but you do get the bifaces and you get caches. I think caches are important. In Clovis we find a lot of caches of these bifacial artifacts as we do in the Solutrean. The caches are normally associated with red ochre. We don't know the significance of the red ochre but they are both in Solutrean and Clovis.

Here we go Min. This is Dennis Stanford, with the Center for the First Americans. He was also featured on the show you copied.
Good article.

[Minimalist]

Thanks, Beags.

I've been intrigued by the wide-spread use of red ochre in neolithic burials in Europe and the M/E. Just really piqued my curiosity when you mentioned it in relation to the spear points.

[Beagle]

It appears that Stanford believes that Clovis is an American invention, but that Solutrean points may have been a precursor. We'll just have to wait for more evidence on that one.

On a side note - Red ochre was originally associated with Neandertal burials.

[Cognito]

It appears that Stanford believes that Clovis is an American invention, but that Solutrean points may have been a precursor. We'll just have to wait for more evidence on that one.

It is my understanding that the Solutreans also invented the atlatl ... anyone see a connection here?

[Beagle]

I don't know Cogs. I'd like to hear more about that if you've run across something about it. At this time the atlatl is said to have come across the Bering land bridge with the Asiatics, and the word atlatl comes from the Aztecs.

Wish I knew more about it.

[Charlie Hatchett]

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