Fingerprints of the Gods - Book Review

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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:04 pm

As per above:

Hancock writes:
Phille Bauche, the eighteenth century French geographer, was also able to publish a map of Antarctica long before the southern continent was officially 'discovered'. And the extraordinary feature of Bauche's map is that it seems to have been based on source maps made earlier, perhaps thousands of years earlier, than those used by Oronteus Finaeus and Mercator. What Bauche gives us is an eerily precise representation of Antarctica as it must have looked when there was no ice at all * His map reveals the subglacial topography of the entire continent, which even we did not have full lnowledge of until 1958, International Geophysical Year, when a comprehensive seismic survey was carried out.
* Again, citing Hapgood.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Beagle
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Post by Beagle » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:22 pm

http://www.crystalinks.com/pirireis.html


[img][img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/LL3850/th_pirimap2.jpg[/img]


Yes, it's true - we're going to have to talk about maps for a while. It seems that Hancock is going to hang his hat on this map here and I'm really going to need some convincing. (click to enlarge map)

The Piri Reis map is dated to 1513 and that is not disputed by Hancock. Also, there is no map of South America in existence that is pre- Columbian.

Hancock maintains that this map is copied from other maps of great antiquity by Admiral Piri. As are the other maps that he cites.

Occams razor rules here. If there are New World maps of great antiquity, why are none of them post - Columbian?



*4 day weekend - we had grandson all day. I won't be here as usual 'till Wed. probably. But I'll pop in.

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:36 pm

Here's a better image of the map...click on it for a 3 meg version.

This web site also translates Reis' notes among other goodies.


http://www.prep.mcneese.edu/engr/engr32 ... ri_r~1.htm
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Beagle
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Post by Beagle » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:43 pm

Yep, better map. And after peeking at the book some it seems that Hancock is making a huge case based on it. I think we're stuck here for a bit.

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:49 pm

Don't forget to check out the other maps.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Beagle
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Post by Beagle » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:17 pm

http://www.prep.mcneese.edu/engr/engr32 ... /notes.htm


This url is yet another picture of the Piri Reis map but it has a translation
from Turkish. Piri gives Columbus credit for discovering the continent. Very interesting stuff.

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:45 pm

There were Arab traders busy along the East Coast of Africa and elsewhere in the Indian Ocean so, any one of them COULD have been driven south by a storm and bumped into Antarctica, I suppose, which would solve the problem of knowing it was there....but not about the coastline or interior since it was ice covered.

I still cannot get over Ptolemy's maps of the glaciers, though. Can't even invent an explanation for that one.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Essan » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:11 am

The Buache map most emphatically does not show what Antarctica would look like without ice - the continent is actually an archeipelego of islands.

However it is quite possible Buache was aware of a southern continent (or, at least, thought there should be one) - and would naturally have added mountains and rivers to his estimation of what it would look like since there was no reason for him to assume such features didn't exist.

The fact that the most obvious feature of the continent - with or without ice - is missing is rather telling. Not showing the West Antarctica Peninsular is a bit like drawing the Mediterranean and missing out Italy ....

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Post by Beagle » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:35 am

Essan, I agree with you that these maps are inaccurate. In fact, that is the problem that I am trying to solve now. These are 16th century maps. They were drawn at the beginning of the "Age of Exploration", following Columbas' famous voyage.

Hancock has a theory that these maps are drawn from a more ancient source. In fact, they look like every other early 16th century map. There is obvious evidence that sailors of that time had been there. And the initial maps were not accurate to modern standards. I've looked at a great deal of the refutations of Hancocks theory on the internet and most of them attack the cartography. This totally misses the larger picture.

Not only did these sailors see Antarctica, they gave us their best rendition of a map. Sure, it's not accurate. None of them are either.

So, how were they able to make a map showing a rough representation of the coastline of the continent?

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Post by Minimalist » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:11 pm

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Buache_Map.html


Bauche's map.

Seems to have some concept of a divided continent.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Essan
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Post by Essan » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:39 am

To be honest I got my Buache and my Fineaus maps mixed up....

However, I came across a critical assessment of these maps a few years ago :-

Buache

Fineaus

Worth reading :)

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:52 am

Heinrich seems to be missing the point....one suspects deliberately.

Hapgood's theory is that these maps were made from older source maps which were themselves copies of copies of copies. Reis, as a Turk, would have had access to the wealth of knowledge which the Arabs kept alive while Europe was in the Dark Ages.

Actual maps of subglacial antarctica seem as rare as hen's teeth but I found this one from the National Snow and Ice Data Center. I wouldn't attempt to interpret it!

Image

Heinrich says: (I have separated the paragraph for comment)

There are four major problems with the above questions and statements of FOG.
First, the Buache Map fails miserably to accurately depict the subglacial topography of Antarctica.


Hold this thought.


Second, although from 50 to over 700 meters of uplift as a result of isostatic rebound would have altered the subglacial topography of Antarctica when it had been ice-free, the Buache map still fails to remotely resemble a hypothetical ice-free topography of Antarctica.


Hold this thought, too, but recall the theory that these were drawn from copies of ancient maps.



Third, numerous paleoclimatic and sedimentologic studies shows Antarctica was ice-covered and glaciated when Hapgood (1979) and FOG claim that it was ice-free and temperate 40,000 to 6,000 B.P.

Finally, Antarctica was totally ice-free over 14 million years ago.


#3 and #4 I agree with...and more important, I haven't read where any geologist subscribes to Hapgood's earth-crust displacement theory.

As for points #1 and #2, Heinrich simply chooses to ignore the fact that at a time (1737) when Europeans did not even know that Antarctica existed, Bauche not only included it but broke from the earlier tradition of Mercator and Finaeus and showed it as separate islands.

As noted here:
Antarctica consists of two major regions: W Antarctica (c.2,500,000 sq mi/6,475,000 sq km), a mountainous archipelago that includes the Antarctic Peninsula, and E Antarctica (c.3,000,000 sq mi/7,770,000 sq km), geologically a continental shield. They are joined into a single continental mass by an ice sheet thousands of feet thick
http://www.answers.com/topic/antarctica

Bauche's vision is correct in general but Heinrich is trying to dismiss him because he did not get all the details correct. As has been noted before, many times on this board, scientists have a way of trying to ignore anomalies they find disconcerting.

Bauche did not have Heinrich's access to seismic surveys, etc. but he still managed a reasonable guesstimate of conditions which could not possibly have been observed by human beings in an unglaciated setting. That seems to be the major issue; not whether or not every island was the correct shape.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Chuck A. Walla » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:00 pm

Minimalist wrote:There are other maps showing Antarctica, however. One of them, as I recall, shows Antarctica as several islands buried under the ice pack. I'll check it out a little later.

Just today I noted this article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 100735.htm

which speaks of North American Lake Bursts....releases of masses of fresh water from melted glaciers in Canada. That there were several of these is a major component of Hancock's theory of the submerging of the Continental Shelf. For that reason, I placed it here for reference.
The findings, reported in this week's edition of the international journal Science (30 June 2006), prove for the first time that sudden North American 'lake bursts' slowed ocean circulation and cooled the climate approximately 8200 years ago. The groundbreaking research increases our understanding of the complex link between ocean circulation and climate change and highlights the sensitivity of the Atlantic overturning circulation to freshwater forcing.

Here is another interesting quote but I remain utterly unconvinced. I just like pointing out that Paleoclimatology is still an infant science.


"The scientists analysed sediments from the bottom of a freshwater lake close to the edge of the present George VI Ice Shelf. The results revealed that about 9500 years ago the ice shelf retreated, allowing the sea to flood into the lake. The ice shelf didn't reform until 1500 years later, and has been present ever since."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115901.htm

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Post by Beagle » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:05 pm

To everyone here that is in the USA - happy 4th. I hope yours was as much fun as mine.
I just like pointing out that Paleoclimatology is still an infant science.
I agree with Chuck. This budding science is just beginning to discover how our world climate is shaped by ocean currents, among other things. I've been personally fascinated with the new theories. What we think we know today will be obsolete tomorrow.

Chucks post mentions one instance of ice shelf melting in Antarctica being reported. As progress is made, other instances may be found. This one discovery of ice shelf melting within the last 12,000 yrs. was suspected of being caused by a shifting of ocean currents. This is exactly what I was saying in an earlier post. The circumpolar current "protects"the continent from the warmer waters of the Atlantic, Pacific, and southern Indian ocean. If those waters were able to extend to the Antarctic continent, the ice shelves would disappear in a geologic nanosecond.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any theory of Hancocks at this point. However, one must ask how these 16th century explorers were able to sail into these waters, evidently circumnavigate the continent, and map the continent - some maps obviously being better than others, and of course none of them perfect.

Hancock seems to dwell on the Piri Reis map, but personally I find the Bauche map to be the best evidence that they were able to view a coastline relatively ice free.

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Post by Minimalist » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:23 pm

Hancock deals with the concept of freshwater releases in his later book "Underworld."

Since I don't want to get off on a tangent with another book, suffice it to say that he discusses evidence for three ( I think) 'superfloods' as the glaciers melted down. These superfloods were caused by ice melting and forming enormous lakes which eventually burst their banks and flooded into the Atlantic. That's for another thread, though.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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