Holocaust in America?

[Minimalist]

More on the same.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/mar02/24849.asp

Kenosha dig points to Europe as origin of first Americans
By JOHN FAUBER
of the Journal Sentinel staff
Last Updated: March 3, 2002
A contentious theory that the first Americans came here from Europe - not Asia - is challenging a century-old consensus among archaeologists, and a dig in Kenosha County is part of the evidence.

The two leading proponents of the Europe theory admit that many scientists reject their contention, instead holding fast to the long-established belief that the first Americans arrived from Siberia via a now-submerged land bridge across the Bering Sea to Alaska.

The first of the Europe-to-North America treks probably took place at the height of the last Ice Age more than 18,000 years ago, said Dennis Stanford, curator of archaeology at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History, and Milwaukee native Bruce Bradley, an independent archaeological consultant and research associate of the Carnegie Museum.

[Minimalist]

And, again....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... mbus.shtml

"DNA lineage predominantly found in Europe got to the Great Lakes, 14,000 to 15,000 years ago"

[Leona Conner]

Great thread you guys have going here, mind if an old broad joins in. I've been interested in this subject since my college days (back before lap tops and even recorders.) Could never figure out why there is so much difference in people from different places. The people from the Amazon look to have African heritage, while on the other side of the Andes they look to have Oriental. Many of the indigenous people of Mexico seem to be a mixture. When I question the so called people-in- the-know, they could not give me an answer that made sense. I think "Rokcet" Man has a good point going and hope we can all find something to help back him.

[Minimalist]

If you aren't older than 56, I'm not going to call you "old."


Welcome to the discussion and that's a good point. There has clearly been some genetic intermingling going on.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Welcome on board, Leona.
Like Mini says, you have an excellent point! In fact, it was this great variety in indian physionomy types – from short, squat, with thick lips and wide faces and noses, to the tall, thin-lipped, slender type, with the 'roman noses'; I've seen them all – that started me thinking, over 20 years ago already, that they could not have just one racial origin. To me, indians seem a mixture of many races. Including, clearly visible in some*, Caucasian! So, when Kennewick Man was found I saw him as the 'missing link' and I started looking more closely at the Clovis culture, the world they lived in, and the timing of it all.
I would be very interested in seeing a photographic line-up of the various indian physionomy types published side by side. That would be very revealing, imho.

* but, afaik, only in present day NORTH-American indians! Images of Aztecs and Maya's with their 'beak' noses, however, also remind me of Caucasians. Definitely not of Asians!

[Frank Harrist]

I have always thought that people came here from many different places. It seem that America has always been the same "melting pot" that it is today. There is no simple explanation for it. People want there to be one answer for how people got here, but it just isn't so. There is too much evidence to the contrary. I am so glad to have found intelligent people who see this too. Ya'll are great!

[Leona Conner]

I won't tell my real age, but I haven't seen 56 in years. As for the Mayans, I always thought that they have an Oriental look about the eyes. In fact, I think that the indigenous people of the Andes have the same features. I think people had been coming over here in waves, not only one time as many say. Some by the land bridge, some by canoes along the coast and some by outriggers from the tropics. I never gave the Atlantic crossing much thought, but if people could cross the Pacific why not the Atlantic? Something to add to my list of things to research.

[Minimalist]

People want there to be one answer for how people got here, but it just isn't so

People want one answer (usually simple) for lots of problems. It just doesn't work that way.

[Minimalist]

Somewhere in one of these threads are photos of the Olmec 'heads' which look African to me. Yet they were found in Central America and can't be fit into anyone's chronology. Doctrine is that the first Africans arrived as slaves and that's it.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] As for the Mayans, I always thought that they have an Oriental look about the eyes. In fact, I think that the indigenous people of the Andes have the same features.

The Mayan 'Lord Pacal' scene is front center in my mind here, Leona:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=12/33413272759.jpg&s=x12

The jury may still be out on what Lord Pacal is doing there, but I submit there may be much more agreement possible on what he looks like! Beak nose and curved face.
Not like the present day Andes indians, imho, who have decidedly flatter faces and flatter and shorter noses.

[Minimalist]

I always thought Von Daniken's description of that carving was compelling. Of course, traditional archaeologists would have a hemorrhage but their explanations are not convincing.

[Rokcet Scientist]

I always thought Von Daniken's description of that carving was compelling.

In that case it is in the same class as Elijah's ascent to the heavens in a chariot of fire or Jesus' and Mohammed's ascents on a cloud! All remarkably like a rocket launch (my specialty, as you know! ).
I'm sure that if you look into it you will find similar stories in most belief systems. Does that in itself mean there's anything to it? No, it doesn't. It only means, as far as I'm concerned, that it's interesting enough to delve deeper in. But I'm getting on thinner ice here...
Anyway, Mini, you said "WAS compelling". How so? When and why?

Of course, traditional archaeologists would have a hemorrhage but their explanations are not convincing.

That's the problem. They haven't got anything better to offer. Work to be done there.

[Minimalist]

It's been 30 years since I read Chariots of the Gods, R/S but as I recall he had highlighted a photo and contrasted it to an actual shot inside an American space capsule.

You know, Pacal sitting on his throne looked a lot more like the space capsule than Captain Kirk sitting in his swivel chair. In other words, reality as opposed to science fiction. There was a sense that the artist was trying to convey an impression of something technological. Nonetheless, you can always count on archaeologists to portray something as ceremonial or religious when they have no other explanation.

AS I opined elsewhere in another thread, 20,000 years from now archaeologists will find Mount Rushmore and conclude that it was a statue to our 'gods.' Then, they will find the foundation of the Gift Shoppe and Snack Bar and conclude that it was a Mortuary Temple to those Gods.

[Rokcet Scientist]

ROTFLMAO!

Yeah. Like the tens of thousands of mummified ibises they found in Egypt. Those were probably the inventory of THEIR local souvenir wholesaler. Similar to the selling/buying and burning incense 'industry' at Roman Catholic cathedrals, in a way. Business!

[fossiltrader]

Just recieved this cheers Terry
Reply-To : ausarch-l@anu.edu.au
Sent : Friday, 2 December 2005 1:02:28 AM
To : ausarch-l@anu.edu.au
Subject : Ausarch-l Digest, Vol 34, Issue 2

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Today's Topics:

1. H erectus H. ergaster in Australia (Steve Corsini)
2. RE: H erectus H. ergaster in Australia (Robert Bednarik)
3. Re: H erectus H. ergaster in Australia (Su Solomon)
4. RE: H erectus H. ergaster in Australia (Canning, Shaun (RTIO))


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:58:04 +0800
From: "Steve Corsini" <sjcarc@upnaway.com>
Subject: [Ausarch-l] H erectus H. ergaster in Australia
To: <AUSARCH-L@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <MABBLCNGOCMCALCHKJHDKECDCBAA.sjcarc@upnaway.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

If it was possible even remotely minutley possible but still possible, for
homo erectus to have made ocean crossings and to have made it to Australia.
where would fossils of that age be found?

where would you look?

Steve Corsini
Pickering Brook
Western Australia


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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:07:39 +0000
From: "Robert Bednarik" <auraweb@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ausarch-l] H erectus H. ergaster in Australia
To: sjcarc@upnaway.com
Cc: AUSARCH-L@anu.edu.au
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:11:47 +1100
From: Su Solomon <susol@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ausarch-l] H erectus H. ergaster in Australia
To: <AUSARCH-L@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1E5A2844-6242-11DA-83A4-000D93B92CB4@ozemail.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Northern areas where there are Plio-Pleistocene limestone formations,
caves and rockshelters.

Specifically the Gulf areas of Qld: Riversleigh and Cape York:
Chillagoe.

But if found, how would you date them?

Good luck,

Cheers,

Su


On 01/12/2005, at 5:58 PM, Steve Corsini wrote:

> If it was possible even remotely minutley possible but still possible,
> for
> homo erectus to have made ocean crossings and to have made it to
> Australia.
> where would fossils of that age be found?
>
> where would you look?
>
> Steve Corsini
> Pickering Brook
> Western Australia
>
>
> <winmail.dat>_______________________________________________
> Ausarch-l mailing list
> Ausarch-l@anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/ausarch-l


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:17:04 +0800
From: "Canning, Shaun \(RTIO\)" <Shaun.Canning@hi.riotinto.com.au>
Subject: RE: [Ausarch-l] H erectus H. ergaster in Australia
To: <ausarch-l@anu.edu.au>, <robertbednarik@hotmail.com>
Message-ID:
<1C0365E6CC601046A220A4D876FE6090059FF804@sbsdaex01.corp.riotinto.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think Morwood recently qualified for that 'needle in a haystack' club
didn't he Robert?



Cheers


Shaun



_____

From: ausarch-l-bounces@anu.edu.au [mailto:ausarch-l-bounces@anu.edu.au]
On Behalf Of Robert Bednarik
Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 4:08 PM
To: sjcarc@upnaway.com
Cc: AUSARCH-L@anu.edu.au
Subject: RE: [Ausarch-l] H erectus H. ergaster in Australia



Dear Steve,

In theory it is possible but unlikely. In practice it is extremely
unlikely, because erectoid hominins seem to have only crossed the sea
where the other shore was visible. Of course they could have limited
their range to those parts of Sahul that are now under the sea, but
again that sounds unlikely.

The greatest problems you would encounter searching for such hominins in
Oz would be taphonomic. For instance, a good place to look for very
early occupation evidence would be the eastern Pilbara, because of its
high aquifer on granite. But this coincides with very poor preservation
conditions, to find hominin remains you need high pH sediments
(carbonate rock, loess, volcanic strata), which are in short supply in
the north of Oz.

Some would point to the very thin evidence of early occupation (e.g.
Kershaw etc.), but if there is any such real proof it would take a
Dubois or a Verhoeven to find it. Australian archaeology lacks people of
such calibre, people who can find the proverbial needle in a haystack
against incredible odds. My prediction is that such evidence will not be
found in the short term, and probably not even in the long term. I would
still love to see myself contradicted on that.

Robert



PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION TO SAVE THE DAMPIER ROCK ART, go to
http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/dampier/web/index.html and click on
'Petition' at bottom of page.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

AURA promotes the study, appreciation and understanding of palaeoart,
rock art and cognitive archaeology.


_____


From: "Steve Corsini" <sjcarc@upnaway.com>
To: <AUSARCH-L@anu.edu.au>
Subject: [Ausarch-l] H erectus H. ergaster in Australia
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:58:04 +0800
>If it was possible even remotely minutley possible but still
possible, for
>homo erectus to have made ocean crossings and to have made it
to Australia.
>where would fossils of that age be found?
>
>where would you look?
>
>Steve Corsini
>Pickering Brook
>Western Australia
>
>

><< winmail.dat >>

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