Oh Christ!!

[Minimalist]

It's Israel....they're all Jews!!!!

[Minimalist]

More crap tonight as Simcha fails to distinguish between amateur 'archaeologists" and bulldozer operators.

The second one, on Food, was pretty childish and the stuff did not look very tasty.

[Beagle]

I've watched them in order and have just finished the "Siege". The only one that held my attention and I somewhat enjoyed was the "Philistines". But in the end I hadn't learned anything. I've got two to go.

Tomorrow.

[War Arrow]

Why are you guys putting yourselves through this ordeal? Is it some sort of hair-shirt thing?

[Minimalist]

That must be it.


On the plus side, when Jacobovici isn't strutting around like a peacock on steroids he does talk to real archaeologists. The trick is to listen to them and not him.

[Digit]

Jacobovici might be wrong, but the fact that we are here shows that he causes debate, and that's good. After all, Fred Hoyle was wrong about the Steady State theory, but proving him wrong advanced our knowledge.

[Minimalist]

Oh hell, digit, we're here anyway. But he does give us something to talk about.

BTW, welcome aboard.

[Guest]

i watched the philistines last night and it was okay, have to agree with beagle and his assessment. the forgery duet was a good show though i find that jacobovici has too many distractions in his filming and his participation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i discovered one reason he bothered me so much which was he seems content to 1. deal with the obvious only even when it has already been stated ; 2. persists in pursuing his theory even though it has been credibly shot down; 3. resorts to stupidity and film techniques that are not germane to the topic or the seriousness of the field he is investigating.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fred Hoyle was wrong about the Steady State theory, but proving him wrong advanced our knowledge.

we already know Jacobovici is wrong and lacks research capibilities but as minimalist says, he talks to real archaeologists and at times he displays real evidence. though it should be said those items only make up about 5% of the show and we are left with sifting through tons of garbage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are you guys putting yourselves through this ordeal? Is it some sort of hair-shirt thing?

because even in the crappiest of shows, there can still be a diamond that has not come to light before or a spark to light a fire for proper investigation which leads to solving a real mystery.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the whole problem with this show is Jacobovici. if he did not have this need to be filmed all the time, whether in person or in imagery, it might even be better.

it is plain to see that he is out of his league in this venture and his contribution to understanding of the field and its surrounding dramas is minimal.

if he had taken a more serious approach and avoided the cartoonish aspect, it would have helpd a lot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as for the jacobovici/finkelstein fight it was not long nor really a fight in my eyes. i felt that finkelstein came off as arrogant and elitist but that is only my impression

[Minimalist]

if he had taken a more serious approach and avoided the cartoonish aspect, it would have helpd a lot.

He is what he is, Arch.

as for the jacobovici/finkelstein fight it was not long nor really a fight in my eyes. i felt that finkelstein came off as arrogant and elitist but that is only my impression

The issue is that Jacobovici is blinded by the artifacts themselves. He has shown no ability to appreciate the science which can tell a lot about an item from the context in which it is found. He defends what are, essentially, treasure hunters, and denigrates scholars. If half of all the items in those antiquities dealer's shops are legitimate the point is that they have little use for scholars because they were removed from their location by someone who merely wanted to sell it. The actual artifacts are contaminated by being lumped in with the fakes and scholars don't want to waste their time trying to sort out which is which when, even if they are successful, they still have just the piece and not the context.

Jacobovici also tends to understate the watchfulness of Israeli police on the Palestinians. I won't speculate on the reasons but I think Finkelstein gets closer to the truth. The JDF is worried about Palestinians smuggling bombs - not artifacts - but they will not know that until after they search the person in question.

[Guest]

The issue is that Jacobovici is blinded by the artifacts themselves. He has shown no ability to appreciate the science which can tell a lot about an item from the context in which it is found

yes that would be true. he is like a child when it comes to archaeology but he isn't the only one.

If half of all the items in those antiquities dealer's shops are legitimate the point is that they have little use for scholars because they were removed from their location by someone who merely wanted to sell it.

maybe archaeologists should go back to doing complete excavations then and avoid this problem. i do not buy into this philosophy that we need to save part of sites for future technology, the information is the information and it is what it is. we miss out on so much because people leave so much in the ground.

by excavating only a part of it one is exposed to only a part of the data thus theories and hyptohesis get off on the wrong foot and mislead many down apath they were not intended to take.

NOW before i get more replies about the cost and the shortage of money, i am not talking about the cost or about money but about procedure. i really do not care about waiting for the future because there may be a war or some other event that closes the site off to archaeologists and then all is lost because someone wanted to wait for a tool that has not been invented yet.


obviously, i do not agree with bulldozer archaeology either but it makes little sense to to work from partial information when you have the opportuinty to recover all the site has to offer. who knows, maybe those pieces of evidence everyone wants to see concerning Israel are still buried
just waiting to be found.

andthat thought makes an excellent support idea for what i have just said. people working from partial data have come up with all sorts of conclusions which do not agree with other ancient sources and have led to speeches, lectures and so on which promote the conclusion or agenda and not the truth.

***now i do not agree with jacobovici, i was just commenting on the argument and not the subject when i said finkelstein came off as... which he did. i wasn't attacking his position but mentioning what his attitude looked like.

[Minimalist]

I thought most of the archaeologists who spoke to Jacobovici did so with the same manner as most adults would use on an obnoxious child.


Barkay had the best line...when Jacobovici asked how much he should be paid for digging Barkay said "nothing."

[Beagle]

I finished watching the "Forgers". I must be behind everyone else but I plead busy.

This one was good I thought. I didn't realize that the politics of archaeology in Israel were so difficult to deal with. There are some crazy policies over there.

And even the experts disagree on whether or a piece is authentic vs. forged ?? I never thought about it much before - but that's bad news.

[Guest]

I must be behind everyone else but I plead busy.

no you aren't behind every one else, i just watch them in the order i recieve them from minimalist.

And even the experts disagree on whether or a piece is authentic vs. forged ?? I never thought about it much before - but that's bad news

have to agree with you here. that type of thinking was one reason i got out of collecting coins, subjectivity can cost you a lot of money and it is too arbitrary for me. i know they say what they say so they can obtain the object at the cheapest price possible and then return it to full value when they put it on sale.

i would hate to invest in middle eastern antiques unless i had a consensus of a few dealers of its value and authenticity.

[Minimalist]

"Jesus" is on its way to you.


Hold on to your hat!

[Guest]

Jesus" is on its way to you.

Jesus is already here you don't need to send him oh and i got the program as well {said with humor in mind}

i wasn't rushing you. i am in no hurry to get them though the one on amateurs was better than the others except jacobovici can't stop being mentally challenged.

i thought he brought out a good point about the attitude of archaeologists about discoveries being made by non-professionals and it brings new light to the profession.

it looked like he used the same footage of finkelstein as well, it was the same words and topic so i am wondering...

that attitude would be a great one for a good discussion, if people are honest about the field. it certainly raise some questions about what we know, how much we don't know and when will we know it.

i know the dead sea scrolls took decades before they saw the light of day so i think this is a very real problem that needs to be dealt with. one question that comes to mnd is:

are some archaeologists practicing censorship or playing to political agendas by their delay in publishing? i know not allare but i wonder about others...finkelstein...dever...etc... (ha)