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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:01 pm

MichelleH wrote:
Minimalist wrote:What do you say, Michelle? Can we have him back??
That would not just be a "no", but a "hell no".

Didn't think so.

:D
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:25 pm

ravenwing5910 wrote:"if we have been here for what roughly 6my, why didn't god show up till about 6 thousand years ago? which should have started with "when and how exactly did god show up? :?
And my question to you is, why do you think God did not enter the minds of men until 6000 years ago? That figure is based on the literal interpretation of Biblical dating and assumes a creation event. You have already said, man was around 6mya so you have nullified your second assumption. So I can answer, God has been around since man first became of self aware.
:wink:

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:38 pm

God has been around since man first became of self aware.

God has been around since man created him.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Beagle » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:49 pm

"Lucy" was only 4 million years old.

ravenwing5910
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Post by ravenwing5910 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:22 pm

Forum Monk wrote: And my question to you is, why do you think God did not enter the minds of men until 6000 years ago? :wink:
Rather than going by Usher's calculations I am basing the question on the previous polytheism and the recent rise of monotheism. So I could restate the question as "when, where and how did god become a single male entity?"

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:25 pm

R/W, check your library for William Dever's Did God Have A Wife. You may find it interesting.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Forum Monk » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:50 pm

Well R/W, in my opinion, a totally different question. I would say organized montheism began to emerge after the second millenium bce; with Abraham; Zoroaster and the Aten cult in Egypt. This is distinct from Monism or the concept that God and all things are one. According to the Abrahamic tradition, monotheism actually was practiced from the earliest memories of man as as a species but only a small percentage of men.

The concept of God as male is an interesting question, however. I could only guess it derives from cultural concepts of gender roles. i.e. male as protector, provider, strength, etc. But female dieties also existed very early on.

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:14 pm

Here, R/W. I've seen discussions of this idea before, but this is by far the most extensive treatise on the subject of post-Exilic Judaism that I've seen.

http://essenes.net/m3.htm#Universal%20God
Herodotus evidently had no knowledge of Yehouah and His remarkable chosen people, the Jews, or their ancient temple in Jerusalem when he wrote his histories about 480 BC, though even then the temple was supposedly nearly 500 years old! He did know of circumcision in the region, but this was a custom of the Egyptians and will only reflect Egyptian influence on Palestine through colonization. His history ended before Nehemiah, the Persian Eunuch, arrived as governor of Judah in 445 BC or Ezra, the priest, arrived in 428 BC or 397 BC (the date, year 7 of Artaxerxes must be of Artaxerxes II, or year 37 of Artaxerxes I has been corrupted). It was only with Ezra that Judaism, with its famous law, was really founded, and the Jerusalem temple got any authority, even if other returners had already established the temple—and that is questionable.
The sign of Persian influence appears in Jeremiah. Rab-Mag was the chief of the Magi. The books of the Old Testament like 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Deutero-Isaiah betray a strong influence of Persia. Thus they even use the reigns of Persian kings as the basis of their chronology. Waterhouse (WAT-ZOR) says some passages "appear as much Persian as Hebraic." The origins of Greek philosophy, which also emerged in the time of the Persians, must also be considered likely to have something to do with Zoroastrian ideas.
This would have sent Arch through the roof....probably just as well that he's not here.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by ravenwing5910 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:21 pm

Monk, I am aware of Akhenaten and the Amarna period, of Abraham and just a tiny bit about Zoroaster. Also about the Greek Pantheon, Egyptian Pantheon and the Celtic as well. Perhaps you can tell me, Was Akhenaten the first to attempt a change to monotheism? And I have never heard of any Ancient monotheistic cults/myths prior to Amarna, so could you give me more information about that, perhaps some resources I can access? :)

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Post by Forum Monk » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:30 pm

Oh. Sorry I thought she asked about monotheism, not Judaism.

btw - In your opinion, did Ezra return to rebuild a wrecked temple or build it new for the first time?

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:35 pm

Forum Monk wrote:Oh. Sorry I thought she asked about monotheism, not Judaism.

btw - In your opinion, did Ezra return to rebuild a wrecked temple or build it new for the first time?

Actually, R/W asked about a single male god.....I'm lagging here, a bit.


I don't think there is any question that the Babylonians sacked and burned the prior temple and "Ezra" (or whoever) was forced to build another structure. Both Babylonian and Jewish sources agree and archaeology has found remnants of that Jerusalem which expanded rapidly under Hezekiah. I suspect that Hezekiah built whatever temple was later demolished in the Babylonian attack.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Forum Monk » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:02 pm

ravenwing5910 wrote:Monk, I am aware of Akhenaten and the Amarna period, of Abraham and just a tiny bit about Zoroaster. Also about the Greek Pantheon, Egyptian Pantheon and the Celtic as well. Perhaps you can tell me, Was Akhenaten the first to attempt a change to monotheism? And I have never heard of any Ancient monotheistic cults/myths prior to Amarna, so could you give me more information about that, perhaps some resources I can access? :)
The first link is evidence of monotheism predating Judaism, as an example:
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Culture/Monotheism.html
This link explores monotheism in Islamic tradition:
http://www.geocities.com/zeeshanhasan/monotheism

We are pushing the boudaries of written history and so we have little other than traditions to speak of. Probably the earliest form of monotheism was actually henotheism and some believe this better suits the early hebrews (pre-exilic).

Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:30 pm

I'm recording two episodes on National Geographic dealing with Jesus from a scientific point of view.

They proceed from the premise that there is at least a historical grain of truth to the story which, I think, is a weakness but still, quite well done.

What is most interesting is that some of the people who critiqued the Jesus Tomb story of Jacobovici and Cameron are featured. Notably Jodi Magess, who wrote a well-written denunciation (and for which I must give Arch credit for finding) and that fellow Reed, who came up with the catch-phrase "archaeoporn" to deal with The Jesus Tomb.

Anyway, whoever wants to see it, just sing out and I'll send it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

ravenwing5910
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Post by ravenwing5910 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:33 pm

Min, I would really like to see it, hopefully I can get that pando thing to work. I dumped it and will try to reload.

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Post by Digit » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:36 pm

Being plain nosy RW, a student of what?

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