Bear in mind Stan that I would have been perhaps 12 years old, and memory being what it is, I don't recall any noise, no explosion at the end either. With hind sight I formed the opinion that it must have survived its passage with the Earth and passed on.
I read an article years later, I think National Geographic, of the existance, I think again, in north America, of a groove in the landscape that was put down to the passage of a large body that close to the Earth and still wonder if someone got it completely wrong as such an event seems difficult to believe. Anyone else know anything on this line?
I hope it's right because I've incorporated a similar event into a novel that I hoping to place with a publisher and I like my facts to be correct. Bad science can never make good fiction I believe.
Dragons!
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Yeah, Digit, that groove story sounds too groovy to be true.
Hard to see how something big enough to have the momentum to pass by the earth without crashing into it would be gigantic and would have
maybe changed the angle of rotation or our planet.
We have in the coastal southeast some oval lakes sometimes called pocosins which
some people think are the result of a comet breaking up and crashing
into the ground. Their azimuths run in the same direction. Maybe I can find a picture or map.
Having done a little research I find that the cometary theory has been "eclipsed' in recent years. the wikipedia article below explains it briefly if you are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_bays
Hard to see how something big enough to have the momentum to pass by the earth without crashing into it would be gigantic and would have
maybe changed the angle of rotation or our planet.
We have in the coastal southeast some oval lakes sometimes called pocosins which
some people think are the result of a comet breaking up and crashing
into the ground. Their azimuths run in the same direction. Maybe I can find a picture or map.
Having done a little research I find that the cometary theory has been "eclipsed' in recent years. the wikipedia article below explains it briefly if you are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_bays
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
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marduk
so its a word with numerous meaningsCOA-TL pl: COCOAH ~ COAMEH snake, serpent, worm; twin... and so on and so forth
that doesnt mean that anything with Coatl in it has all those meanings applied to it does it
think serpentine in our language which can be applied to
doesn't mean that theres a snake which is a sea monster the size of a river which is wily and tempting does itsnake, sea monster, river, wily, tempting
Hi Stan. As you could tell by my comments I found the whole idea a bit unlikely but at the same time what about a something only a few hundred metres across, solid, and travelling like Hell!.
Anybody know the escape velocity from the Solar system?
I repeat, I find it unlikely, but is it theoretically possible?
Anybody know the escape velocity from the Solar system?
I repeat, I find it unlikely, but is it theoretically possible?
Nope. Can't find the bugger so for the present it remains in the realm of myth. Pretty sure the reference is in Codex Magliabechiano, which I ain't got. Nor can I find anything but odd pages online (so if anyone has any search strategy recommendations...). Maybe it was all a dream.marduk wrote:where are you getting that from ?Mexican serpents were symbolically related to earthworms
Nonetheless the association of serpents (or if you like serpentine creatures - denoted by the -coa- component) with the earth or underworld is hardly a far fetched claim. Coatlicue (who popped the kid Huitzilopochtli at Coatepec), Cihuacoatl, Tezcacoacayopechtli were essentially earth Goddesses - significantly so. Cave mouths were equated to serpent maws -as in the town Coatlichan, where the sun rose from below the earth at dawn (ie - emerged), as ruled by Acolmiztli (ruler possibly deified as later underworld God) according to Chimalpahin's Seventh Relacion. There's non-earthy serpents (the xiuhcoatl, Mixcoatl), and also serpent/ fertility symbols in abundance - notably Tlaloc's quiahuitl glyph "snake" mask. As you say yourself, words invariably carry more than a single meaning, although one variant doesn't necessarily negate the validity of another, particularly as there's no great conflict of import.
WA. On the subject of snakes, serpents, earthworms. Again, something I read a long time ago suggested that in middle English/Welsh the root of worm was Orme, and there are a lot of British place names that incorporate the word Orme and have folk tales/myths associated with giant worms, serpents, dragons.
I'm sorry for not being able, frequently, to quote sources but till I moved here I never lived for long in any one place and my book collection was very small and selective, in fact I've just finished building a large built in bookcase, (took me 6 months) so I might be able to find some of references in future but those of you in the forum with an interest in languages may have more on this idea.
I'm sorry for not being able, frequently, to quote sources but till I moved here I never lived for long in any one place and my book collection was very small and selective, in fact I've just finished building a large built in bookcase, (took me 6 months) so I might be able to find some of references in future but those of you in the forum with an interest in languages may have more on this idea.
Digit:
Groove in the earth...
I suppose you could set up a hypothetically possible encounter that would leave a groove....
The object would have to be just the proper size, mass and hardness, and travelling "like hell" as you suggest, in order to escape the earth's gravity and avoid being burned up in the atmosphere.
BUt then again, at such speeds, it seems to me that any collision, even
tangentially, would cause a huge explosion, due to the hardening of things at high speed (like the surface of water).
I'm stumped, but it still might make a good background for a scifi adventure.....(One of my recurring dream images from childhood is of the moon being extremely close to the earth.)
But your comment about good science making good science fiction is a good one, too. I am reminded of the film Contact in which, near the end, Jodie Foster climbs into a big time machine that looks like some sort of spinning carnival ride. That was a letdown for me. I don't remember the explanation of how spinning her around enabled her to travel in time, but then people say I am unwilling to suspend my disbelief.
Groove in the earth...
I suppose you could set up a hypothetically possible encounter that would leave a groove....
The object would have to be just the proper size, mass and hardness, and travelling "like hell" as you suggest, in order to escape the earth's gravity and avoid being burned up in the atmosphere.
BUt then again, at such speeds, it seems to me that any collision, even
tangentially, would cause a huge explosion, due to the hardening of things at high speed (like the surface of water).
I'm stumped, but it still might make a good background for a scifi adventure.....(One of my recurring dream images from childhood is of the moon being extremely close to the earth.)
But your comment about good science making good science fiction is a good one, too. I am reminded of the film Contact in which, near the end, Jodie Foster climbs into a big time machine that looks like some sort of spinning carnival ride. That was a letdown for me. I don't remember the explanation of how spinning her around enabled her to travel in time, but then people say I am unwilling to suspend my disbelief.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
I have to agree with marduk
The very first "written" stories (that we have uncovered so far) on the creation of the world is from the Sumerian civilization generally in the area we call Mesopotania. This area which later became Persia and then part of various Middle East civilization is generally found between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq and Iran.
The actual word "dragon" comes from the Greek language much later than this time so any mundane interpretation of creatures by this name before the Greeks must be by descriptions and attributes and not by name. They were generally considered "monsters" even if they had divine attributes.
The very origins and foundations of the entire Mesopotamian culture comes from the stories, culture, and ethics of these Sumerians. The later civilizations of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, and then Grecians all got much of their philosophy, cosmology, and religion from the earlier stories/ myths of the Sumerians so it behooves us to first look at these early very early stories and pay particular attention to them.
In fact so many of the stories sprout the same type of general story line that we can actually divide them into two categories; Gods versus monsters (dragons) before creation and heros versus monsters after creation. Later versions of the stories often change the names of the parties about but maintain the basic story line. Is it possible that all these stories came from a single source and was later simply adapted, adopted, and some elements changed to suit the civilization telling it? This is a possibility to be considered about these first stories. Many later dragon stories will also be changed in the same manner by different areas or countries but with the same original tale.
The earlier myths often have a god, usually a storm god or a god armed with thunder and lightning bolts, chasing a dragon that has something to do with water. Examples are almost all of the Mesopotamian stories, the Indian god Indra, both Chinese and Japanese myths, the Mayan Rain Gods, the Egyptian sea dragon/serpent Apophis and pursuer Re, and even many early Semitic stories.
From the very start Dragons were seen as guarding treasures, holding back the floods, and dispensing knowledge. They also are battled by gods or heros from the very beginning. In many cases stories from the Sumerians were borrowed and slightly changed by the preceding civilizations. These same stories were very similar in content but with the actual names of the participants changed.
The first written commentary, found on clay tablets, uses the names of Asag, a monster/dragon (sometimes named as Kur) and Ninurta, a god/hero
http://www.biopark.org/dragonhistory.html
The very first "written" stories (that we have uncovered so far) on the creation of the world is from the Sumerian civilization generally in the area we call Mesopotania. This area which later became Persia and then part of various Middle East civilization is generally found between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq and Iran.
The actual word "dragon" comes from the Greek language much later than this time so any mundane interpretation of creatures by this name before the Greeks must be by descriptions and attributes and not by name. They were generally considered "monsters" even if they had divine attributes.
The very origins and foundations of the entire Mesopotamian culture comes from the stories, culture, and ethics of these Sumerians. The later civilizations of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, and then Grecians all got much of their philosophy, cosmology, and religion from the earlier stories/ myths of the Sumerians so it behooves us to first look at these early very early stories and pay particular attention to them.
In fact so many of the stories sprout the same type of general story line that we can actually divide them into two categories; Gods versus monsters (dragons) before creation and heros versus monsters after creation. Later versions of the stories often change the names of the parties about but maintain the basic story line. Is it possible that all these stories came from a single source and was later simply adapted, adopted, and some elements changed to suit the civilization telling it? This is a possibility to be considered about these first stories. Many later dragon stories will also be changed in the same manner by different areas or countries but with the same original tale.
The earlier myths often have a god, usually a storm god or a god armed with thunder and lightning bolts, chasing a dragon that has something to do with water. Examples are almost all of the Mesopotamian stories, the Indian god Indra, both Chinese and Japanese myths, the Mayan Rain Gods, the Egyptian sea dragon/serpent Apophis and pursuer Re, and even many early Semitic stories.
From the very start Dragons were seen as guarding treasures, holding back the floods, and dispensing knowledge. They also are battled by gods or heros from the very beginning. In many cases stories from the Sumerians were borrowed and slightly changed by the preceding civilizations. These same stories were very similar in content but with the actual names of the participants changed.
The first written commentary, found on clay tablets, uses the names of Asag, a monster/dragon (sometimes named as Kur) and Ninurta, a god/hero
http://www.biopark.org/dragonhistory.html
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Manystones
- Posts: 260
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:21 am
- Location: Watford, England
- Contact:
Good link..
Just brainstorming, how long has the Komodo dragon been about?
I am guessing that this would have made an impression on the first hominids that saw it.
Just brainstorming, how long has the Komodo dragon been about?
I am guessing that this would have made an impression on the first hominids that saw it.
Richard
www.palaeoart.co.uk
www.palaeoart.co.uk
Komodos migrated to the islands of Flores, Rinca and Gila Motang, which were joined about 10,000 years ago. The island of Komodo joined the other islands around 20,000 years ago during the last Ice Age.
http://www.sfsu.edu/~geog/bholzman/cour ... komodo.htm
http://www.sfsu.edu/~geog/bholzman/cour ... komodo.htm
I have been up close and personal with some big Aligators and Caiman, but this must have been one bad lizard:
Humans were in Asia 25,000 years ago, so maybe some cultural memory?"Megalania prisca, a varanid, could have reached lengths up to 23 feet and weighed up to a ton due to the existence of stegodonts or pygmy elephants (Diamond, 1992). These enormous varanids, that have been extinct for 25,000 years, may explain how Komodo dragons evolved to be such large carnivores in an ecosystem that has a limited amount of resources."
Digit said:
Stan said, luring me off topic (which admittedly isn't difficult):
Okay. I'm done.
Yup. I've come across that too somewhere or other.Again, something I read a long time ago suggested that in middle English/Welsh the root of worm was Orme, and there are a lot of British place names that incorporate the word Orme and have folk tales/myths associated with giant worms, serpents, dragons.
Stan said, luring me off topic (which admittedly isn't difficult):
I suspect Sagan's book might make more sense, although I've not yet read it myself. I think he researched it pretty thoroughly with er... Kip Thorne (?) -wormhole theories big cheese extraordinaire. Know what you mean though. That last sequence didn't quite fit the rest of the film. Actually I don't mind unscientific science fiction so long as it downplays the science part of the title and uses the 'you wouldn't undertand' get-out clause in an interesting way. Uhm...I am reminded of the film Contact in which, near the end, Jodie Foster climbs into a big time machine that looks like some sort of spinning carnival ride. That was a letdown for me. I don't remember the explanation of how spinning her around enabled her to travel in time, but then people say I am unwilling to suspend my disbelief.
Okay. I'm done.
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DougWeller
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 11:54 am
- Contact:
You all must read Adrienne Mayor's books, go out and buy them.Beagle wrote:No doubt about it. We have done this before. Even in the Americas, the earliest myths include dragon creatures. I don't want to wade through past threads but we've mentioned the many Native American representations of Dragons - even evident in their art.but agian semantics is useful to an extent as in the case of the word -dinosaur - other words used were - bohemoth - for one . so i am guessing but maybe there were other english words that would have been used to present the idea of a dragon
It is a world wide phenomenon and is still not entirely understood I guess. And from what I can tell, Dragon lore came to Europe lastly.
There have been many books, TV shows and documentaries about Dragons.
I have never felt personally that the Bible spoke of an actual Dragon.
FOSSIL LEGENDS OF THE FIRST AMERICANS. Princeton, 2005
THE FIRST FOSSIL HUNTERS: PALEONTOLOGY IN GREEK AND ROMAN TIMES. Princeton University Press, 2000
http://www.geocities.com/stegob/firstfossilhunters.html
http://tinyurl.com/y744zm
http://members.aol.com/afmayor/myhomepage/writing.html
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Yeah, she had some of her theories presented on TV here a few years ago. There seems to be no doubt that mans concept of Dragons were formed by what he saw in his environment. The four legged Dragons, in particular, seem to have the characteristics of fossil remains of a tricerotops I think.
I also think though that heavenly bodies like meteors and comets provided fuel for the myths.
I also think though that heavenly bodies like meteors and comets provided fuel for the myths.
This topic raises the whole issue of cryptozoology...
We still have "monsters" today...bigfoot, yeti, Nessie, etc.
When I was a kid there was a story printed in our paper about a local woman who claimed that while she was hanging out the wash a
drooling bigfoot-sorf-of-creature came into her backyard and started to steal her baby who was sleeping in a stroller. She scared it away by screaming. I went to a party with other teenagers near her house a few days later, and we were all scared stiff to go outside in that neighborhood.
And you can find people who believe all kinds of things.. that the moon landing was a hoax, for example. or miracles.
Marco Polo apparently believed everything he heard in the folklore he picked up on his travels. There were some tales about dragons and giant serpents in his book.
We still have "monsters" today...bigfoot, yeti, Nessie, etc.
When I was a kid there was a story printed in our paper about a local woman who claimed that while she was hanging out the wash a
drooling bigfoot-sorf-of-creature came into her backyard and started to steal her baby who was sleeping in a stroller. She scared it away by screaming. I went to a party with other teenagers near her house a few days later, and we were all scared stiff to go outside in that neighborhood.
And you can find people who believe all kinds of things.. that the moon landing was a hoax, for example. or miracles.
Marco Polo apparently believed everything he heard in the folklore he picked up on his travels. There were some tales about dragons and giant serpents in his book.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.