I know. I know. It makes me pretty angry (of all the things I could get angry about, I choose this???) Even the more respectable books about general Mexican cultures tend to dismiss the Mexica as very poor cousins to the Maya. Once I'm onto this subject I find it very hard to stop, but they were a sophisticated society on many levels, and most of the accusations (stone-age level of technology, no wheel etc) don't stand up to serious scrutiny given that not every civilisation develops along the exact same lines. I like the fact that Mexico has a reasonably well-developed sense of pride in its past, especially in light of everybody else telling them they used to be the bad guys - hardly surprising though, Mexicans seem to me like the nicest people you could ever hope to meet (as a generalisation). In comparison, my own ancestors were pretty much the village idiots of ancient culture.Leona Conner wrote: I'm pretty sick of all the programs about the Aztecs going on and on about their religion and human sacrifice. They had to have had a pretty high level of intelligence to build a city on the lake and build a viaduct to get water down to it and all the rest. Too bad they don't spend more time telling us about that part of their culture and not just the bloody part. They built temples and palaces to match anything anywhere else, but they don't seem to want to talk about that. THEN there's their rock carvings, I mean all their pictographs were carved in rock. They were truly amazing.
DBC Pierre - The Last Aztec
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Anything on the pre-Columbian states would be an improvement in UK culture, even if the programme is rubbish it MIGHT just fire some interest in some members of the public. I have to agree with one of the earlier posts about his waiting 20 years to find fellow enthusiasts, that alone tells us something about the state of amateur archeology here, which is strange as the amateur has a lot to offer, in fact the discipline was founded on the work of amateurs. Even Darwin would be unlikely to receive other than honourary recognition from modern acedemia, same with Wallace.
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Leona Conner
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:40 am
- Location: Tennessee
We had a show here a few weeks back (at least I think it was a couple of week -- time is passing so quickly.) It was called Engineering an Empire--Aztecs. They actually did a pretty good job for the first 30 to 40 minutes. They told about how the Aztecs escaped to the lake and built Tenochtitlán. It was probably the best I've seen so far, but then they finally had to get to the human sacrifice business, too bad. If people could visit the museum and the other cultural places, they would have a very different idea of where these people came from. People put them down because they did not have beasts for burden nor the wheel, yet look at what they did anyway.
Digit and War Arrow,
Of course US of America fought a war with Mexico and took over what is now the SW US around 1858, I think.
If you go to "New Mexico" you find the greatest concentration of
Spanish speakers, as well as the greatest of concentration of
Native Americans if you thrown in the "4 corners" are where NM, Arizona, Colorado and Utah come together....(the categories are obviously blurred).
When you travel in this area, you find small "Mexican" villages as well as
Native American Pueblos and Reservations. Apache, Hopi, Navajo and the descendents of the Anasazi. On my first visit, it was hard to believe it is part of the US.
Forgive the ramble, but I'm just going to point out the irony that in the US, general knowledge of the MesoAmerican cultures is almost nil.
In fact, even knowledge of the North American Indians is almost nil.
I was stunned to find out that Geronimo lived with the lifetime of my father!
There's a general presumption here among Americans of European descent that it was god's will (disguised as something called "manifest
destiny") that we took over the land "from sea to shining sea" away from the Indians. Recall this was the era of British colonialism, too.
Anyway, it is more likely that Yanks will visit Cancun and Acapulco than MExico City, not to mention the more isolated archaeological sites.
Essentially, Americans ignore our neighbor, Mexico.
Of course US of America fought a war with Mexico and took over what is now the SW US around 1858, I think.
If you go to "New Mexico" you find the greatest concentration of
Spanish speakers, as well as the greatest of concentration of
Native Americans if you thrown in the "4 corners" are where NM, Arizona, Colorado and Utah come together....(the categories are obviously blurred).
When you travel in this area, you find small "Mexican" villages as well as
Native American Pueblos and Reservations. Apache, Hopi, Navajo and the descendents of the Anasazi. On my first visit, it was hard to believe it is part of the US.
Forgive the ramble, but I'm just going to point out the irony that in the US, general knowledge of the MesoAmerican cultures is almost nil.
In fact, even knowledge of the North American Indians is almost nil.
I was stunned to find out that Geronimo lived with the lifetime of my father!
There's a general presumption here among Americans of European descent that it was god's will (disguised as something called "manifest
destiny") that we took over the land "from sea to shining sea" away from the Indians. Recall this was the era of British colonialism, too.
Anyway, it is more likely that Yanks will visit Cancun and Acapulco than MExico City, not to mention the more isolated archaeological sites.
Essentially, Americans ignore our neighbor, Mexico.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
Leona Conner wrote:People put them down because they did not have beasts for burden nor the wheel, yet look at what they did anyway.
Don't get me started. I'm itching to respond but having just put up what might be the longest post ever in the history of bulletin boards, I feel I should probably try keeping my mouth shut for a while.Oh dammit.
There's a (fairly convincing) argument that, without beasts of burden and given the general topography of much of Mexico (plenty hills) wheeled transport would only have been a much less convenient alternative to the traditional carrying frames. Besides which, the wheel was not a completely alien concept. It's principle would have been used in moving large stones and rocks by rolling them on logs, also there were wheeled toys (well, I can think of one - a clay deer figurine on clay (moving) wheels from, if I remember correctly, the Totonac culture on the Gulf Coast.
Jesus! I've done it again.
Time I got my ass down to Mexicaholics Anonymous.
In a private post to War Arrow I confessed to near zero knowledge on pre-Columbian societies despite an interest spanning 50 years, (his GP says he will recover), but unless you can travel to various sites we are all controlled by what we can learn fom the various media.
In the UK it seems current education to either ignore, or denigrate, British Colonial history, my daughter, for example, was informed at school that Britain never engaged in the African slave trade. It was not only the Nazis or the Soviets who have attempted to re-write history.
For me, War Arrow needn't apologise for beating his personal drum, he seems to be the only person I have come across with any in depth knowledge of the subject.
Keep it coming!
In the UK it seems current education to either ignore, or denigrate, British Colonial history, my daughter, for example, was informed at school that Britain never engaged in the African slave trade. It was not only the Nazis or the Soviets who have attempted to re-write history.
For me, War Arrow needn't apologise for beating his personal drum, he seems to be the only person I have come across with any in depth knowledge of the subject.
Keep it coming!
I'm blushing.
I guess it's a constant of global television that you're never quite going to get the real thing. In terms of historical documentaries, I've seen a few on "my" subject - Horizon, Spirits of the Jaguar (which was pretty good), Michael chuffin' Wood etc. The thing is, I can watch a few programmes about Rome and think 'wow! that was interesting' - then you get one on you-know-where and I'll be sitting there screaming NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO FOR F****G F***'S SAKE NO at the screen for 50 minutes which makes me wonder, if I was actually a little better informed upon ancient Rome would I be reacting in a similar way. It's a worrying thought. this is perhaps why I've got far more out of things like the DBC Pierre show and Anthony Gormley's take on the Aztecs exhibition - these people aren't really purporting to be historians so their take on the subject is sometimes refreshing despite a few glaring errors.
I guess it's a constant of global television that you're never quite going to get the real thing. In terms of historical documentaries, I've seen a few on "my" subject - Horizon, Spirits of the Jaguar (which was pretty good), Michael chuffin' Wood etc. The thing is, I can watch a few programmes about Rome and think 'wow! that was interesting' - then you get one on you-know-where and I'll be sitting there screaming NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO FOR F****G F***'S SAKE NO at the screen for 50 minutes which makes me wonder, if I was actually a little better informed upon ancient Rome would I be reacting in a similar way. It's a worrying thought. this is perhaps why I've got far more out of things like the DBC Pierre show and Anthony Gormley's take on the Aztecs exhibition - these people aren't really purporting to be historians so their take on the subject is sometimes refreshing despite a few glaring errors.
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Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16013
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
if I was actually a little better informed upon ancient Rome would I be reacting in a similar way.
Doubtless.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
It's not just Rome or PC America War Arrow, did you watch the the Walking with Dinosaurs series? Fascinating, it was. Accurate, we---ll. What annoyed me was the way the programme went from proven fact, through good theory to plain guess work!
But it is an unfortunate fact that much talk on the 3 epocs covered by dinosaurs has been embarrassing in its stupidity. I am still being informed that dinosaurs were reptiles, they may well have been, though I doubt it, but their classification as such was based simply on the fact that the first known specimen was name Iguanodon because its teeth were like those of an Iguana, ipso facto, they were reptiles.
Rather like saying that as Protceratops had a beak like structure it must have been a bird!
I won't go into the subject of pterosaurs 'cos it's bad for my heart!
But it is an unfortunate fact that much talk on the 3 epocs covered by dinosaurs has been embarrassing in its stupidity. I am still being informed that dinosaurs were reptiles, they may well have been, though I doubt it, but their classification as such was based simply on the fact that the first known specimen was name Iguanodon because its teeth were like those of an Iguana, ipso facto, they were reptiles.
Rather like saying that as Protceratops had a beak like structure it must have been a bird!
I won't go into the subject of pterosaurs 'cos it's bad for my heart!
Digit, War Arrow, let it all hang out! But don't have a stroke!
i want to learn something on this board.
Where else can you emote about your passions and have an
interested, audience?
BTW, War Arrow, I read the Conquest of New Spain a few years and found it a ripping good read! Even though some people say it's fiction.
i want to learn something on this board.
Where else can you emote about your passions and have an
interested, audience?
BTW, War Arrow, I read the Conquest of New Spain a few years and found it a ripping good read! Even though some people say it's fiction.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
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Frank Harrist
On the subject of human sacrifice, Charles C. Mann said in his book, "1491", that there were more people publicly executed for crimes in europe than were publicly sacrificed in the americas during the same time period. There was very little crime in the americas. I will continue to recommend that book. Good one! Read it!
Yes, I've always noticed a lot of UFO type stuff in Wales, oddly enough. Nevertheless, I do sort of envy you. I stayed in Machynlleth a few months ago and fell in love with the place (again) and not hearing cop car sirens every five minutes. I'm in complete agreement with you on the subject of Walking With Dinosaurs by the way. Those were my thoughts in a nutshell.Yeah! If only my local bookshop got past gardening, UFO's, and cook books I would. My neck of the woods was the last in the UK to receive broad band and is just beginning to enter the 20th century. But it is nice and quiet and friendly to be fair.
That's kind of what I've heard too, so thanks for the recommendation. I'll certainly look out for that book.On the subject of human sacrifice, Charles C. Mann said in his book, "1491", that there were more people publicly executed for crimes in europe than were publicly sacrificed in the americas during the same time period.
Is this the W.H. Prescott one? If so, there's plenty of bias, exaggeration, even some fibbing (at least on the part of his sources) but once you're aware of that, it certainly is a ripping good read. 19th century /early 20th century writings might repeat falsehoods or use since-refuted sources but they still, I believe have some worth. It's interesting to see how the recording of history has changed, plus often they'll refer to details which have since sunk below the radar of popular accounts through being usurped by more recent finds of more direct relevance to whatever an author is trying to say. There was one guy - Lewis Spence, who wrote all manner of nutty stuff (Mayan elephants for example) but still kept enough to make his books of value.I read the Conquest of New Spain a few years and found it a ripping good read! Even though some people say it's fiction.
I live even further west than that War Arrow, in fact much further west and I'd be in Ireland. If you're interested, check the Welsh coast line along Cardigan Bay till you find Cardigan, 4 miles north you'll find Tremain, (if you use a large scale map), 15 houses, 1 church, blink and you'll miss it! And not a UFO in sight, though we are blessed with dark skies that make you understand why some early civilisations were sky worshippers in one form or another.
It's so quite here we had one neighbour move away because he couldn't stand the noise of the dawn chorus followed by the Owls taking over for the night shift. Aaah!
It's so quite here we had one neighbour move away because he couldn't stand the noise of the dawn chorus followed by the Owls taking over for the night shift. Aaah!
Sorry about 4 copies of the same post. I knew something weird was going on there (and if it goes to court I want Starflower as my first witness for the defence). Michelle - is there any way I can get rid of the 3 extra copies? I feel a bit embarrassed and I want to put all of this behind me.
Oh. Done it. And there was about 6 of them. Sorry everyone. The "Club" is trying to discredit me by making me look foolish.
Oh. Done it. And there was about 6 of them. Sorry everyone. The "Club" is trying to discredit me by making me look foolish.