Idaho, huh?

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist

Post Reply
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15688
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Idaho, huh?

Post by Minimalist » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:47 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/30/us/idaho ... index.html

Idaho artifacts show humans came to North America via a water route, not land
Davis first went to Cooper's Ferry in 1997, after reading earlier studies that found spearheads and other tools in the 1960s, back when researchers didn't have the resources to date the artifacts.
Now, that's changed. 1997 was just a test excavation, and Davis returned with a team in 2009 to do some real digging, staying at the site until 2018.
The team basically uncovered a campsite, finding stone tools, the remains of a fire pit and broken up bones of medium to large animals, something like elk or deer.
It wasn't just a one-time stop, either. Davis said people returned to the site, and the team found newer artifacts closer to the surface and older ones further down. They dated the artifacts using radiocarbon dating, what Davis called the "gold standard" in aging things younger than 50,000 years. It's the most accurate dating method for archeologists, so the team is confident in their accuracy.

Let the games begin!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

kbs2244
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by kbs2244 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:02 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... red%20User

This story is a little more detailed.

It calls the dating difference less than 2000 years
14,000 vs 16,000

Isn't that within the plus/minus range at these ages?

I smell headline hunting.

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15688
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by Minimalist » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:16 pm

Irrelevant. The latest guesstimates for the mandatory "ice-free corridor" that Clovis First needs are 12,000 BC. 14,000 or 16,000 are both sufficient to demolish it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by circumspice » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:27 am

I've read articles & papers where 'Clovis Firsters' were working on Clovis sites... They stopped & dug no further after clearing the Clovis layers... instead of continuing until they cleared all the way to sterile layers... That, of course, was because there was 'nothing to find' below the Clovis layers...

I suppose that the world must wait for natural attrition (old age & death) before we can dispense with the Clovis First theory once & for all.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

shawomet
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:14 am

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by shawomet » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:18 pm

circumspice wrote:I've read articles & papers where 'Clovis Firsters' were working on Clovis sites... They stopped & dug no further after clearing the Clovis layers... instead of continuing until they cleared all the way to sterile layers... That, of course, was because there was 'nothing to find' below the Clovis layers...

I suppose that the world must wait for natural attrition (old age & death) before we can dispense with the Clovis First theory once & for all.
One way the theme of Thomas Kuhn's seminal work, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" has been summarized is "science advances one funeral at a time". I forget who coined that, but I always liked it. But, really, Clovis First is finished as far as I can see. Too many valid pre-Clovis sites in both North America, and South.

The Pacific coast kelp highway hypothesis for entry into the Americas has been in the ascendency for a number of years now. I expect it to prevail overall. Early human migration and watercraft is "a thing" of late, not just in the peopling of the Americas puzzle. Funny how that works.

User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by circumspice » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:39 pm

"science advances one funeral at a time"


Lmao!!! Thanks shawomet! That quote made my day!
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15688
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by Minimalist » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:08 pm

Attributed to Max Planck, although the translation from German to English may be a bit off.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

User avatar
Cognito
Posts: 1606
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by Cognito » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:05 pm

I found the last paragraph in the Seattle Times article interesting wherein the archaeologist is comparing the tools found in Idaho to those extant in Japan at the time. The Japanese current takes boats directly over to British Columbia, Washington and Oregon. There are historical accounts of Japanese boats and sailors (mostly deceased, but not all) showing up on the Pacific Northwest coast after losing rudders, etc. and drifting along the current for months until landfall.

Seafaring boats were being used by ancient maritime Japanese at least from 30,000bce and quite possibly earlier to obtain deposits of obsidian more than 30 miles offshore in one case. Traveling along a current to North America while fishing along the way would be quite easy. Too bad most main stream archaeologists don't possess the ability to see that. :roll:
Natural selection favors the paranoid

User avatar
Cognito
Posts: 1606
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by Cognito » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:43 am

And meanwhile, farther south, people were trapping mammoths at about 15,000ybp in Mexico, see: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ma ... spartandhp

Since the earliest Clovis remains recovered were found at the Gault Site in Texas and dated to 13,400ybp by Mike Waters, Clovis appears to be completely dead and buried even though some old school archaeologists continue to exhume their remains while ignoring the obvious: North and South America were already populated before the Clovis Culture arose, spreading rapidly throughout the western hemisphere within 200 years.
Natural selection favors the paranoid

User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by circumspice » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:57 am

Thanks for the link to that article cogs!
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Idaho, huh?

Post by circumspice » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:35 pm

Cognito wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:05 pm
I found the last paragraph in the Seattle Times article interesting wherein the archaeologist is comparing the tools found in Idaho to those extant in Japan at the time. The Japanese current takes boats directly over to British Columbia, Washington and Oregon. There are historical accounts of Japanese boats and sailors (mostly deceased, but not all) showing up on the Pacific Northwest coast after losing rudders, etc. and drifting along the current for months until landfall.

Seafaring boats were being used by ancient maritime Japanese at least from 30,000bce and quite possibly earlier to obtain deposits of obsidian more than 30 miles offshore in one case. Traveling along a current to North America while fishing along the way would be quite easy. Too bad most main stream archaeologists don't possess the ability to see that. :roll:

Just for giggles, I would have thought it would have been the Joman culture from Taiwan. I seem to remember them being considered intrepid seafarers. Their pottery has been found in some fairly far flung places. I got to visit Taiwan & see an archaeological dig in progress. The university conducting the dig had built a shed roof over the entire excavation area & they also built elevated walkways. On the day we visited they had about a dozen students excavating or dry sieving excavated material. They also had a conservation shop with large windows all the way around the building so that tourists could observe without getting in the way of work in progress. Nicely built walkways all around the perimeter of the site allowed tourists meander around the site to see what the students were doing. It was quite interesting. They had excellent signage pointing out important features of the site. I also got to visit a couple of museums while there. They were very nicely done. The signage was multilingual so that most people could understand what they were seeing. They also had interactive exhibits geared for all ages. Lots of hands on stuff, not just audio/video stuff. The museums I visited in Europe a decade earlier weren't nearly so accommodating.
Maybe that's all changed now.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

Post Reply