Historical Mayan / African (by phenotype) American monarchs

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:25 am

Looks like I'm going to need more popcorn.

PaulMarcW · Post by **PaulMarcW** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:55 am

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Hi E.P. This thread is dealing with the (by phenotype, not geographical) prehistoric African presence in Americas. Your 18-page article on page 8 in this thread touches on prehistoric shipping and the vehicles, thus, that that might have been used in such a venture:

Your article states:

Barbot is cited by Hargreaves (in Stone, as above) re. the Portugese sources of of west African sails. Sails in west-facing Europe were seen to be one of many traits evolving on Atlantic coasts owing little to elsewhere. Those in Egypt emerge from Nile Valley conditions and those of the Sixth Dynasty (c. 2350- 2280 B.C.) bear some likeness to west African forms but are not identical. Elsewhere in this work, the west African dugout was seen as basically a riverine form with some sea-going capacity. This should mean it and its traits owe very little to outside and in this way, the African matting-sail ...

These deal with early shipping. Here are two pages that show some of those early ships:

http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subjects ... 1d-01.html

Early planck and sail boats:

http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subjects ... 11-04.html

http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/700_m ... 00-05.html

I did print-out those 18 pages.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:32 am

Hi Paul Marc,

I don't share all of your views, but we once had some heated discussions here about the famous Olmec heads. I maintain that the one looks distinctly African, although not all of them do.

If you haven't already, you might take a look at Pedra Furada in Brazil. I'm becoming more open to the possibility that these very early Americans may have come from Africa.

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf087/sf087a01.htm

PaulMarcW · Post by **PaulMarcW** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:47 am

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Hi Beagle. I believe there is also a plethora of mid-Neolithic black and red stick figurine in Furada if I am not mistaken that looks just like the African material. Thanks for the reference, though.

Here are some more Olmec heads:

Hi Beagle. Here are some more Olmec heads:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-01.html

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 12-01.html

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-01.html

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:05 pm

Great. I see that you are looking at Pedra Furado. Good luck Paul.

PaulMarcW · Post by **PaulMarcW** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:34 pm

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Hello Beagle. In following up on your Furada note, I checked my material and things went in an unexpected direction. In Furada, Brasil (pic. 6) there is some use of polychrome where the figurine are black and dark brown. But, in many other places, the contrast is more vivid with red and black as the discussion on the web page shows.

The value of this page in relation to the thread looking at an African presence in the prehistoric Americas is that we see African (1-South Africa, 2-Egypt) precedents in the Americas (5-Baja, California, 6-Furada, Brasil, 7-Bonampak, Mexico). As mentioned, these transatlantic voyages were mostly likely through storm-captured ships that catapulted captured vessels into transatlantic trade winds and transatlantic currents.

You, Beagle, were the inspiration for this page. Thank you for the motivation.

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 00-10.html

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:37 am

Wow! I did not realize that my suggestion to look at Furada would lead to such extrapolation.

Nevertheless, I still maintain that Furada has the best possibility of being an African entry into the new world.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:45 pm

While I am not against the idea of a lot ocean traffic going on in "un-recorded" times, I do think it is a bit of a stretch to say that any occurrence of red/black in an inscription, or rock painting, or what ever, is an example that Africans have been there.

It is a high contrast color combination.

Anyone wanting to highlight what they were showing would have used it.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:39 pm

It is a high contrast color combination

Yep and not only that, as has been previously discussed, red ochre seems to have been everywhere and charcoal had to be equally common if not more so.

PaulMarcW · Post by **PaulMarcW** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:27 pm

Hi kbs2244 and Minimalist. You seem to have said that the occurrence of red and black peoples paired together in a first and unclothed phase followed by the clothed phase is accidental.

I noted that an opinion such as yours might be valid saying that the pairing could have been “done independently in each location.” I echoed a position such as yours before you stated it.

We are talking about one “package” of similarities.

Might you consider that while one similarity between multiple entities (those locations with red-black pairing) may not show similar origins that multiple similarities between multiple entities enhance the possibility of similar origins?

If so, then to the “package” of red-black pairing through two contiguous phases of art, here are six more similarities in a cultural toolkit where the paired red-black figures are. At this page

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 12-01.html

is it written:

Consider these six material markers or "artefacts" comprising a common cultural toolkit in the ages largely preceding what we call history:

1) The dug-out canoe http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subjects ... 1d-01.html

2) Common games and hair care products – the comb http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 00-10.html

3) Pyramids: http://www.beforebc.de/all_africa/200_e ... 00-10.html

4) Neolithic pottery burials: http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 08-10.html

5) Board games part 2: http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 12-01.html

Board games part 1: http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 12-02.html

6) Rock art http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 00-08.html

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PaulMarcW · Post by **PaulMarcW** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:24 am

We can add adzes as the 7th member of a cultural toolkit found wherever the red and black paired figures are who have gone through two contiguous phases of art during the same window of time - a time not found before or after:

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 10-35.html

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curious01 · Post by **curious01** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:08 am

kbs2244 wrote:While I am not against the idea of a lot ocean traffic going on in "un-recorded" times, I do think it is a bit of a stretch to say that any occurrence of red/black in an inscription, or rock painting, or what ever, is an example that Africans have been there.

It is a high contrast color combination.

Anyone wanting to highlight what they were showing would have used it.

I agree with you. Additionally I have a theory of my own, that many of the rock drawings/cave paintings don't neccesarily show gods/spirits/people of other races, but possibly record religious rites, and that some of the unidentified figures are merely representations of body-painted & decorated humans.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:08 am

Marc:

Now you are building a better case.

I would be careful about using anything in the current day Caribbean as evidence however.
It is undoubtedly one of the most ethnically mixed areas on the planet.

Any current Africa culture influence could be traced to 200 years of slave trading.
And another 400 years since then.

PaulMarcW · Post by **PaulMarcW** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:28 am

[Curious writes]

kbs2244 wrote:

While I am not against the idea of a lot ocean traffic going on in "un-recorded" times, I do think it is a bit of a stretch to say that any occurrence of red/black in an inscription, or rock painting, or what ever, is an example that Africans have been there.

It is a high contrast color combination.

I agree with you.

[Marc writes]

Curious. The problem I have with the thinking that you show (kbs later goes into more detail about that thinking) is that it assumes (I believe) that each group of people started out history where we find evidence of them (skeletal remains, art work, fossilized camp fires, etc.).

Conversely, the view you hold means that people didn’t migrate; never migrated. Obviously, I hold a different view: that people migrate and carry their cultural toolkits with them. And the reason we find red and black figures together along with: 1) dug-out canoes, 2) games and hair products, 3) pottery grave goods during the neolithic, 4) pyramids, 5) adzes, 6) board games, 7) stick person rock art ... the reason we find red and black figures together with those seven other things is that they likely (I didn't say "definately" but "likely") started out at the same place.

Statistics states that the greater number of things correlated together the lesser the probability it is that they are due to chance. So, we have these seven things. There are more I could add to the list of seven.

So, I am a migrationist: I believe that people begin in certain places with certain things in their cultural toolkits and carry these things when they travel country-to-country, continent-to-continent.

I admit that the three pages shown below do not account for migrations in the neolithic and bronze age to which most of those things in my seven item cultural toolkit found where the red-and-black stick figures are. However, you might consider the genetic trail that shows the pathway people took from where their ancestors began to where their descendents were later found:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_africa/04-10a-00-02.html

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... -00-13.jpg

http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/05-09-10.html

[kbs writes]

Marc:

Now you are building a better case.

I would be careful about using anything in the current day Caribbean as evidence however.

It is undoubtedly one of the most ethnically mixed areas on the planet.

Any current Africa culture influence could be traced to 200 years of slave trading.

And another 400 years since then.

[Marc writes]

kbs. For the most part, my research stops about 1500 AD. I do speak to things and use evidence after 1500 AD but 95% of my work is for things happening prior to 1500 AD precisely for the reasons you mention.

Curious. You state that your theory of art work is that it may represent ritual. I'd agree that's a possibility.

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curious01 · Post by **curious01** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:45 am

No, I never meant to imply that people don't migrate and take technology of some sort with them. Sorry if I came across that way.

I fully believe in the probability (that) there have been more than a few migrations from a multitude of regions, using different routes and means to the new world.

Have African DNA tracers shown up in the archaeological record (or in general population & first nations) in this country from before European settlement?