Important genetic find on the First Americans

[Cognito]

^ Didn't notice any Mormon links...think it was a band of Indians doing their own genetic tests, can't figure WHY they did it, but did gather they were rather surprised...

There's nothing surprising about stupidity. You won't find any valid research supporting their conclusion. I wish them the best of luck with their casino and/or land grab.

[clubs_stink]

Were they going to grab at the Holy land then? Not sure I get your point. All I got from reading that is that these folks now believe more in their "ancient" folk lore believing that the DNA tests validate their oral tradition...or did I miss something?

[Cognito]

This group is petitioning to the State of Tennessee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs and to the White House for recognition as an indigenous Native American tribe. With that comes a variety of rights, including the right to petition for a share of tribal land. Of course, there is an "anti Semitic" conspiracy afoot to prevent this.

[Minimalist]

In order to be one of the "lost tribes of Israel" there would have had to be "lost tribes of Israel."

Archaeological surveys show that in the aftermath of the Assyrian attack on "Israel" the population of Judah began to rise dramatically. Normal population growth cannot account for the rise which leaves a wave of refugees as the only reasonable explanation.

Even the Assyrians only claim to have deported 27,290 people and those were replaced by others from elsewhere in the Assyrian empire.


http://www.dkmcgee.150m.com/sargonii.htm

The Assyrian inscriptions also record king Sargon's boasting, "I besieged and captured Samaria, and carried off 27,290 of its inhabitants as booty"

[clubs_stink]

This group is petitioning to the State of Tennessee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs and to the White House for recognition as an indigenous Native American tribe. With that comes a variety of rights, including the right to petition for a share of tribal land. Of course, there is an "anti Semitic" conspiracy afoot to prevent this.

OK I'm lost which isn't unusual. I thought they were already Cherokee Indians that did some DNA testing and found they had Askanazi jew blood too??? Now they want to be another tribe?

[E.P. Grondine]

I just recently read about some Cherokee Indians having their DNA tested and finding that their DNA traced to Ashkenazi Jews...naturally this has created a fire fight...which I am not qualified to decipher. And naturally I didn't save the links, but I suppose it's googlelable (is that a word?) I'd love to hear other opinions.

Clubs, I am currently working with mtDNA X2 data provided by a reputable geneticist. What you read was a complete oversimplification of the data. The Most Common Recent Ancestor (MCRA) between any New World population and Near Eastern Jews would be at least 20kya, and nobody is quite certain where that mama lived - the Caucasus area is the most reasonable guestimate at present. Haplogroup mtDNA X2 is used to justify many agendas - my favorite is the Cayce Foundation using this haplogroup as proof of the Atlantis dispersal. For some reason those fleeing the sinking continent shied away from South America entirely - maybe they were avoiding chile peppers?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1180497

On a lighter note, I was intrigued to discover that GW Bush was related to Vlad the Impaler....

Well, I'm not too surprised. However, Vlad Dracul had a nicer disposition - he wasn't responsible for as many deaths as Dubya.

Hi Cognito -

My guess is a little further south yours, that X mt DNA evolved in the Black Sea area before it flooded, and is marked by cardiod pottery and a whole lot of nifty technologies - polished stone tools, serated edges, mesolithic crops. I think this group may have been responsible for the advanced tech we see in SE Turkey.

There is that X pocket in the Levant area, not simply Jewish (if I remember (Druze?) damned stroke, you know).

As far as eastern and western Cherokee traditions, and the confusions due to the conquest, perhaps others are better able to speak to that.

As far as the Cayce group goes, have you read my guide inside the cult archaeology industry yet?

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[Cognito]

My guess is a little further south yours, that X mt DNA evolved in the Black Sea area before it flooded, and is marked by cardiod pottery and a whole lot of nifty technologies - polished stone tools, serated edges, mesolithic crops. I think this group may have been responsible for the advanced tech we see in SE Turkey.

EP, I consider the Caucasus area to be split into two regions during the late Pleistocene, north and south. The Transcausus range was an effective barrier to travel in both directions until the Pass of Dariel was discovered. Otherwise, transport was by boat. To me, the southern range is contiguous with SE Turkey. The northern range was interesting since the Caspian was flowing into the Black Sea for thousands of years via the Manytch Straits post-LGM.

By the way, which flood? post-14.5kya (glacial), 11.6kya (glacial) or (Mediterranean) 7.85kya?

There is that X pocket in the Levant area, not simply Jewish (if I remember (Druze?) damned stroke, you know).

You must be recovering from your stroke. Yes, there is an X2 pocket in the Levant among the Druze (constituting 27% of their population). However, they are not X2a which is only found in North America and splits from the Old World haplogroups a very long time ago (see below). Druze is a mix of:

X1a
X1b
X2
X2b
X2e
X2f

Just because X2a (Native American haplogroup) looks similar to the other X2 haplogroups doesn't mean they are close genetically. Recent estimates put diversion at 20-26kya. However, a misunderstanding of mitochondrial genetics will give people an excuse to advance their agenda in a politically sensitive area.

You cannot have a meaningful discussion about "Haplogroup X" or even "Haplogroup X2" since it is necessary to go all the way to "Haplogroup X2a" to begin discussing the Native American version. This is something the Mormons, Cayce, et al, fail to do. See this chart for the different groupings:

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/discussion/hap_X.htm

As far as the Cayce group goes, have you read my guide inside the cult archaeology industry yet?

No, I haven't read your gude but would be happy to do so.

[E.P. Grondine]

My guess is a little further south yours, that X mt DNA evolved in the Black Sea area before it flooded, and is marked by cardiod pottery and a whole lot of nifty technologies - polished stone tools, serated edges, mesolithic crops. I think this group may have been responsible for the advanced tech we see in SE Turkey.

EP, I consider the Caucasus area to be split into two regions during the late Pleistocene, north and south. The Transcausus range was an effective barrier to travel in both directions until the Pass of Dariel was discovered. Otherwise, transport was by boat. To me, the southern range is contiguous with SE Turkey. The northern range was interesting since the Caspian was flowing into the Black Sea for thousands of years via the Manytch Straits post-LGM.

By the way, which flood? post-14.5kya (glacial), 11.6kya (glacial) or (Mediterranean) 7.85kya?

There is that X pocket in the Levant area, not simply Jewish (if I remember (Druze?) damned stroke, you know).

You must be recovering from your stroke. Yes, there is an X2 pocket in the Levant among the Druze (constituting 27% of their population). However, they are not X2a which is only found in North America and splits from the Old World haplogroups a very long time ago (see below). Druze is a mix of:

X1a
X1b
X2
X2b
X2e
X2f

Just because X2a (Native American haplogroup) looks similar to the other X2 haplogroups doesn't mean they are close genetically. Recent estimates put diversion at 20-26kya. However, a misunderstanding of mitochondrial genetics will give people an excuse to advance their agenda in a politically sensitive area.

Well, you'll read about the European confusions in my guide.

Now as for Cherokee traditions, I am reluctant to speak of them, as I am not of Cherokee heritage nor speak Cherokee. But I think I would be correct in saying that there are two main traditions, the ani kwitani (eastern, around Watsega) and the ani tsulagi (western). The first retained some elements of Savanah River (Oanachee/ Yuchi) traditions, including south Atlantic ocean crossing, and among modern Cherokee they are sometimes re-set in time and viewed in European biblical terms.

The later western tradition, of the ani tsulagi, has many elements in common with Shawnee traditions.

One major problem is the number of tradition keepers who perished in the conquest.

You cannot have a meaningful discussion about "Haplogroup X" or even "Haplogroup X2" since it is necessary to go all the way to "Haplogroup X2a" to begin discussing the Native American version. This is something the Mormons, Cayce, et al, fail to do. See this chart for the different groupings:

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/discussion/hap_X.htm

As far as the Cayce group goes, have you read my guide inside the cult archaeology industry yet?

No, I haven't read your guide but would be happy to do so.

Please write to me for a copy of my guide - I set the address to write to out in old world section here. You will be amazed - I guarantee it.

Now back to the subject at hand. The X mt DNA haplogroup in NA is associated with a group of people with male adult height 7 1/2 feet -
check out Dragoo and Neuman's "Adena" excavations and discussion in "Mounds for the Dead". They really were 7 1/2 feet tall.

These folk survived to contact as the Andaste, and for eye-witness European contact accounts of them see my book "Man and Impact in the Americas".

Further, everyone remembered fighting them, Ho-Chunk (Hotcegea), Menominee, Ojibwe, Wendat, Five Nations, Shawnee, Cherokee.

As to which floods, and whether we have a sea or land population diffusion, we still don't have an earliest date for the appearance in SE Turkey of "hi-tech". Those flood dates should correspond in some way to the 10,900 BCE date (12,900 kya) for the comet impacts in North America, unless they were earthquake related, so I'd take another really close look at how reliable they are.

The cardiod pottery spread west does occur later. There was an excellent piece on the internet on the spread of early tunny fishing, along with sheep or goats (can't remember which).

The "hi-tech" shows up in coastal North America at 8,350 BCE, and that date may be considered firm.

How this "northern" "hi-tech" may be related to an Indian Ocean/ Egyptian mesolithic "hi-tech" (12,000 BCE) is another one of those intriguing questions.

For the development of the different mt DNA haplogroups, human populations were separated by massive impact events. Key some of the DNA differences to those impacts, and then you'll have a reliable rate of DNA shift estimate.

[Cognito]

... The X mt DNA haplogroup in NA is associated with a group of people with male adult height 7 1/2 feet -
check out Dragoo and Neuman's "Adena" excavations and discussion in "Mounds for the Dead". They really were 7 1/2 feet tall.

These folk survived to contact as the Andaste, and for eye-witness European contact accounts of them see my book "Man and Impact in the Americas".

Further, everyone remembered fighting them, Ho-Chunk (Hotcegea), Menominee, Ojibwe, Wendat, Five Nations, Shawnee, Cherokee.

EP, first of all, I am a big-time believer in Native American oral tradition. That's why I enjoyed and I continue to enjoy your book as I re-read it. However, I am looking on the Jewish tradition here as a distortion of something else. I agree with you that the mtDNA X2a is the female version of a separate entry into North America from ... somewhere in the Old World.

Here's the rub: The yDNA male counterpart was probably exterminated. Those may be the "giants" included in the legends and reported by early European settlers. To me, a giant at that time would be anyone six feet tall or more; however, seven footers are certainly possible. Actually, I suspect that the haplogroup is a version of yDNA R1b. The bottom line? We need bones for analysis.

As to which floods, and whether we have a sea or land population diffusion, we still don't have an earliest date for the appearance in SE Turkey of "hi-tech". Those flood dates should correspond in some way to the 10,900 BCE date (12,900 kya) for the comet impacts in North America, unless they were earthquake related, so I'd take another really close look at how reliable they are.

The deltas on the Meditteranean side of the Bosporus sill resulted from ice dam failure upstream (i.e. the Altai). The comet impacts at 12.9kya probably would not affect that drainage system much due to the lack of proximity. However, the older delta dated by Ali Aksu is from about 14,400bp (unpublished) while the second delta was established between 11 to 10,000bp. I haven't read the following paper for some time, so maybe I'm wrong:

http://www.gsajournals.org/perlserv/?re ... 2.0.CO%3B2

The cardiod pottery spread west does occur later. There was an excellent piece on the internet on the spread of early tunny fishing, along with sheep or goats (can't remember which). The "hi-tech" shows up in coastal North America at 8,350 BCE, and that date may be considered firm.

In correspondence with a Cambridge scholar a couple of years ago I was told that deep sea fishing remains were found in Greece dating to that period (I cannot remember the type of fish). However, it was only located in the Atlantic - not Meditteranean. The report is still unpublished.

How this "northern" "hi-tech" may be related to an Indian Ocean/ Egyptian mesolithic "hi-tech" (12,000 BCE) is another one of those intriguing questions.

There appears to be back migration from the south into the Caucasus / SE Turkey area at a very early date (pre or during LGM). Half of the world's current genetics originate in that geographical locale which infers significant isolation time.

For the development of the different mt DNA haplogroups, human populations were separated by massive impact events. Key some of the DNA differences to those impacts, and then you'll have a reliable rate of DNA shift estimate.

Two other isolation events also come into play in the analysis: The separation of peoples post-LGM (24kya to 18kya) and the dispersal of peoples due to massive late Pleistocene floods (the Altai floods were larger than the Missoulas).

http://geology.mines.edu/faculty/klee/docs/Altai.pdf

[kbs2244]

The important thing about being “an indigenous Native American tribe,” apart from the already recognized Cherokee tribe, is that then they can have their own casino franchise and not have to share it.

[Minimalist]

Can't argue with that.

[E.P. Grondine]

This group is petitioning to the State of Tennessee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs and to the White House for recognition as an indigenous Native American tribe. With that comes a variety of rights, including the right to petition for a share of tribal land. Of course, there is an "anti Semitic" conspiracy afoot to prevent this.

You can go to New Age Frauds and Plastic Saviors (NAFPS), a site on Native American frauds which is run by Native Americas, and see if this group is researched there, or simply join NAFPS and send off an inquiry to the NAFPS participants and ask about this group.

[E.P. Grondine]

... The X mt DNA haplogroup in NA is associated with a group of people with male adult height 7 1/2 feet -
check out Dragoo and Neuman's "Adena" excavations and discussion in "Mounds for the Dead". They really were 7 1/2 feet tall.

These folk survived to contact as the Andaste, and for eye-witness European contact accounts of them see my book "Man and Impact in the Americas".

Further, everyone remembered fighting them, Ho-Chunk (Hotcegea), Menominee, Ojibwe, Wendat, Five Nations, Shawnee, Cherokee.

EP, first of all, I am a big-time believer in Native American oral tradition. That's why I enjoyed and I continue to enjoy your book as I re-read it. However, I am looking on the Jewish tradition here as a distortion of something else. I agree with you that the mtDNA X2a is the female version of a separate entry into North America from ... somewhere in the Old World.

Here's the rub: The yDNA male counterpart was probably exterminated. Those may be the "giants" included in the legends and reported by early European settlers. To me, a giant at that time would be anyone six feet tall or more; however, seven footers are certainly possible. Actually, I suspect that the haplogroup is a version of yDNA R1b. The bottom line? We need bones for analysis.

As to which floods, and whether we have a sea or land population diffusion, we still don't have an earliest date for the appearance in SE Turkey of "hi-tech". Those flood dates should correspond in some way to the 10,900 BCE date (12,900 kya) for the comet impacts in North America, unless they were earthquake related, so I'd take another really close look at how reliable they are.

The deltas on the Meditteranean side of the Bosporus sill resulted from ice dam failure upstream (i.e. the Altai). The comet impacts at 12.9kya probably would not affect that drainage system much due to the lack of proximity. However, the older delta dated by Ali Aksu is from about 14,400bp (unpublished) while the second delta was established between 11 to 10,000bp. I haven't read the following paper for some time, so maybe I'm wrong:

http://www.gsajournals.org/perlserv/?re ... 2.0.CO%3B2

The cardiod pottery spread west does occur later. There was an excellent piece on the internet on the spread of early tunny fishing, along with sheep or goats (can't remember which). The "hi-tech" shows up in coastal North America at 8,350 BCE, and that date may be considered firm.

In correspondence with a Cambridge scholar a couple of years ago I was told that deep sea fishing remains were found in Greece dating to that period (I cannot remember the type of fish). However, it was only located in the Atlantic - not Mediterranean. The report is still unpublished.

How this "northern" "hi-tech" may be related to an Indian Ocean/ Egyptian mesolithic "hi-tech" (12,000 BCE) is another one of those intriguing questions.

There appears to be back migration from the south into the Caucasus / SE Turkey area at a very early date (pre or during LGM). Half of the world's current genetics originate in that geographical locale which infers significant isolation time.

For the development of the different mt DNA haplogroups, human populations were separated by massive impact events. Key some of the DNA differences to those impacts, and then you'll have a reliable rate of DNA shift estimate.

Two other isolation events also come into play in the analysis: The separation of peoples post-LGM (24kya to 18kya) and the dispersal of peoples due to massive late Pleistocene floods (the Altai floods were larger than the Missoulas).

http://geology.mines.edu/faculty/klee/docs/Altai.pdf

While I don't cover this in my book, the Andaste were pretty much exterminated by English colonists very early on. As the Adena (Andaste) had no survivors, their remains are open to study, but...

Native Americans as a whole do not like to have remains disturbed, as this interferes with passing. That said, I think that if they are done respectfully, DNA studies and other studies can be rapidly and carefully done before re-internment. But that is just in my opinion, and others may differ with my view. See the discussion in my book.

As near as I can make out, the end of the ice age is such. During the ice age, the Pacific Current was warmer. (The Algonquin peoples are hunting sea turtle on the northern Pacific coast of North America.) This warm moist air fell as snow on Canada, snow which reflected sunlight back into space.

With the Holocene Start Impacts, the Pacific Current cools. leading to less snow on Canada, leading to more sunlight absorbed.

Counter-intuitive, isn't it. Well, wait until you hear the European side of this.

The melt water from North America cools the Atlantic Current - which leads to more snow in Europe, and some confusion as to "Younger Dryas" temperatures.

As far as y DNA goes, from what I've seen of recent European studies, the y situation is confusing. That's why the Native American mt DNA distribution is so important, as the crossings sequence seems pretty clear.

I'll try to relocate that tunny fishing piece.

[Cognito]

While I don't cover this in my book, the Andaste were pretty much exterminated by English colonists very early on. As the Adena (Andaste) had no survivors, their remains are open to study, but...

Interesting website regarding the Susquehannocks (Andastes) put together by Deb Twigg of Sayre, Pennsylvania :

http://www.spanishhill.com/susquehannocks/default.shtml

Apparently, the last 20 members were killed in 1763 in retaliation for frontier atrocities. Would certainly be interesting to perform genetic analyses on their remains.

[E.P. Grondine]

While I don't cover this in my book, the Andaste were pretty much exterminated by English colonists very early on. As the Adena (Andaste) had no survivors, their remains are open to study, but...

Interesting website regarding the Susquehannocks (Andastes) put together by Deb Twigg of Sayre, Pennsylvania :

http://www.spanishhill.com/susquehannocks/default.shtml

Apparently, the last 20 members were killed in 1763 in retaliation for frontier atrocities. Would certainly be interesting to perform genetic analyses on their remains.

Yes, that is very nice work by Ms. Twigg - a believe I mentioned it in the footnotes in my book, but I'll have to go back and check.

The key article on the colonial genocide of the Andaste was published in Century magazine, but then it would take me several hours to dig it out of my files.

The key site would be to find the place where George Alsop hung out with them- of course, even a simple document search would require tens of thousands of dollars, and then there's site location (using metal detectors - after all, it is a contact site) and then site excavation - so we're up to say $50,000-70,000 at a minimum. Than you have the DNA tests themselves, the expense of which would be trivial compared to the costs of recovering the remains.

I don't know what happened to the Andaste remains Dragoo and Neuman recovered.

Of course, you probably want to also run DNA tests on Ocanachee and Yuchi remains, and other Savanah River peoples' remains - don't be surprised when the North African markers show up.

Again, let me emphasize that after the tests are run, remains should be properly re-interred by those assigned this task by the successor peoples, in my opinion.