This guy has his head on straight

[E.P. Grondine]

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/marc ... 30310.html

Reading this was certainly a bright spot in my day.

Very good reading. He understands. Consider carefully his "apparat", the theoretical and technical framework for his study.

Note that he cares.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[Sam Salmon]

Great link!

Thanks for sharing!

[wxsby]

I know this predates the primary subject of this post, but I, being somewhat ignorant of the way this forum is organized and having been unable to find something to reply to regarding the Anasizi that hasn't been archived, will post my comments here. In the late '60s and early '70s, as a student involved in investigating some Pueblo sites in Arizona, around campfires and students with guitars, banjos, mandolins and coolers of malt beverage, I learned this song, sung to the tune of 'The Wabash Cannonball". That you aren't familiar with the tune is irrelevant.

Down in Arizona, where scholars’ minds are free,
The theories are all fool proof, as any fool can see
This song it is the story of the greatest one of all
How them Athabaskan Bastards caused the Great Pueblo fall.

They stand up in their classrooms and there they hem and haw,
And tell fantastic stories of surveys that they saw,
When the Apache got there, they do not know at all,
But them Athabaskan Bastards caused the Great Pueblo Fall.

Along the Blue Pacific, along the rock bound shore,
From Columbia to Sonora, we find them evermore.
They were fierce and they were warlike, its known to one and all.
That them Athabaskan Bastards caused the Great Pueblo Fall.

Way down in the southlands lived a sedentary folk,
Who thought of scurvy nomads as something of a joke.
They could not know, they could not see, the meaning to it all.
So them Athabaskan Bastards caused the Great Pueblo Fall.

Throughout the spring and summer, they grew their corn and beans.
Then came the blow that shattered all those great Pueblo dreams.
The burning of the cornfields, it cast a smoky pall,
As them Athabaskan Bastards caused the Great Pueblo Fall.

The lookout saw them coming, his eyes were sharp and true,
They ran back to their pueblos, they pulled up the ladders too.
They thought that they were safe there, but those Bastards scaled the wall.
Yes them Athabaskan Bastards caused the Great Pueblo Fall.

One of the rangers at Mesa Verde or Waptki or somewhere said we were idiots... there was peace and harmony among all the tribes. The Apache weren't warriors! They tried to peacefully assimilate with the Anasazi. Most of the peacenicks I was with agreed. But I, as the turd in the punchbowl, having spent the previous two years in Marine Corps infantry in Vietnam, said, "This is a village in defilade!" They said, "Huh?" I said, "Yep!"

[Minimalist]

Actually, down in Arizona the politicians are closing the parks and museums and burying the indigenous history beneath a flood of red ink.


However, they have managed to preserve low tax rates for their wealthy patrons.

[wxsby]

Their low taxes aren't just for "wealthy patrons". Employers are leaving California in droves for Arizona, Nevada and Texas. My son's company just laid off 400 people here in California because we consider historic sites and political correctness sacrosanct, and hired 400 new employees there. None of them, including my son, are 'wealthy'. Many (tens of) thousands of other jobs are headed that way. Our state, California, is broke. Busted. I love it here but will be headed elsewhere in retirement. To stop development because someone says it is a holy place is assinine. Explore it, document it and move on. When all the tax paying folks are gone and the squatters have moved in, as they are doing now, there won't be anything left anyway.

[E.P. Grondine]

To stop development because someone says it is a holy place is assinine. Explore it, document it and move on. When all the tax paying folks are gone and the squatters have moved in, as they are doing now, there won't be anything left anyway.

Speaking about squatters, it's not yours to decide what is a sacred place and which is not.
It's not your history, and not your religion.

What I have seen is that those communities that respect ancient Native American sacred sites prosper, while those that don't fail. Perhaps its a sign of intelligence, or of some fundamental moral qualities of the community leaders.

But let's leave that aside. As green space is needed for recreation to improve the quality of life, which is what attracts the people who run those companies, why not preserve green space that has tourist value, that has educational value, that connects people with history?

That feeling of continuity is of great emotional value for all of the members of any community.

Perhaps someday you will understand this, hopefully before it is too late and you feel the need for what has been lost, and the sorrow of it.

[uniface]

There are too many balls in the air here.

I respect Islam. Sincerely. But I'm not up for having the Ramadan fast imposed on me by it.

Probably few people here know of Carl Yahnig, but they should. He's a retired schoolteacher in Christian County, Kentucky who, for forty years, has obsessively collected (sometimes in five gallon buckets) and catalogued artifacts from what has come to be dubbed the "Little River Clovis Complex" of Paleoindian sites. Two thirds of what archaeologists understand about PI lithic procedures derive directly from his collection -- highlights of which have been the featured exhibits at national and international academic conferences for years. His stuff is, literally, what "the book" is largely based on.

I hear the same poignancy and despair in these words of his : It would be nice if a collection of this importance remained in a state institution but my experience has been tarnished by powers that be on a statewide, regional and local basis. The lack of proper control by the Kentucky Heritage Council over artifacts -- petty jealousy, discouragement and criticism by an archaeological representative of a regional university, Murray State and our local Pennyroyal museum, which once housed a representative collection of the Little River Clovis Complex Clovis artifacts but, at the same time, neither understood nor appreciated their importance (there is more local interest in the Trail of Tears and happenings less than two centuries past than of the original colonizers of the Americas many millenia ago) -- these have proven the maxim, "a prophet is not without honor save in his own country." Fortunately, other archaeologists and people from outside the state and throughout the world have esteemed the artifacts in a more appreciative light.

[E.P. Grondine]

One of the rangers at Mesa Verde or Wupatki or somewhere said we were idiots... there was peace and harmony among all the tribes. The Apache weren't warriors! They tried to peacefully assimilate with the Anasazi. Most of the peacenicks I was with agreed. But I, as the turd in the punchbowl, having spent the previous two years in Marine Corps infantry in Vietnam, said, "This is a village in defilade!" They said, "Huh?" I said, "Yep!"

Hi Barry,

Let me see if I can explain this for you. The reason for the denial of population movements and wars by the surviving peoples is that they are concerned that their claims to their little remaining land will be questioned. The archaeologists often go along to insure their rights to excavate, as well as to not upset anyone.

Generally, Native American peoples assimilated when migrating, and seldom were there genocides, as seen commonly in Europe. But this was not always the case; extreme climatic conditions could lead to extreme actions.

As we're all living here now, we need to know what happened then, for it is likely we will face similar problems sometime in the future. The problem: While they write and sing humorous songs drinking around the campfire, no one looks at what caused the Athabascan migration. Nor Lenape. Nor Mushkogean. The cultural transitions are often clear.

I found the enclosure of the principle structures by defensive walls at Casa Grande interesting.

So hold your ground, and when you see armed conflict and/or conquest, call it like you see it, but be prepared for the consequences. That's what I had to do and have to do regarding comet and asteroid impacts.

On the other hand, many very different peoples did study at Wupatki, before the final eruption.
That area is one of the nation's most important archaeological preserves, and important to millions of US citizens.

By the way, you might enjoy reading my book "Man and Impact in the Americas".

[E.P. Grondine]

There are too many balls in the air here.

I respect Islam. Sincerely. But I'm not up for having the Ramadan fast imposed on me by it.

Yeah, but I am pretty sure that you would not endorse the tearing down of an ancient mosque, and consider what happened at Oxford recently.

Probably few people here know of Carl Yahnig...Two thirds of what archaeologists understand about PaIeolithic procedures derive directly from his collection -- highlights of which have been the featured exhibits at national and international academic conferences for years. His stuff is, literally, what "the book" is largely based on.

I hear the same poignancy and despair in these words of his : It would be nice if a collection of this importance remained in a state institution but my experience has been tarnished by powers that be on a statewide, regional and local basis. The lack of proper control by the Kentucky Heritage Council over artifacts -- petty jealousy, discouragement and criticism by an archaeological representative of a regional university, Murray State and our local Pennyroyal museum, which once housed a representative collection of the Little River Clovis Complex Clovis artifacts but, at the same time, neither understood nor appreciated their importance (there is more local interest in the Trail of Tears and happenings less than two centuries past than of the original colonizers of the Americas many millenia ago) -- these have proven the maxim, "a prophet is not without honor save in his own country." Fortunately, other archaeologists and people from outside the state and throughout the world have esteemed the artifacts in a more appreciative light.

Sad.

It seems to me that Kentucky has one of the worst archaeological processes of any state I have visited. Do you know of any worse, uniface?

[Rokcet Scientist]

Housing "a representative collection of the Little River Clovis Complex Clovis artifacts" in a Kentucky museum is like housing a 'representative collection of biblical artifacts' in a Mecca museum: asking for destruction. So if that Carl Yahnig character was responsible for that my question would be: how stupid can you get?

[uniface]

Kentucky at least puts out a token effort on paper.

Pennsylvania doesn't even try.

[wxsby]

What I have seen is that those communities that respect ancient Native American sacred sites prosper, while those that don't fail. Perhaps its a sign of intelligence, or of some fundamental moral qualities of the community leaders.

That feeling of continuity is of great emotional value for all of the members of any community.

Perhaps someday you will understand this, hopefully before it is too late and you feel the need for what has been lost, and the sorrow of it.

I live less than one mile (by my GPS) from the boundry of the Barona Indian Reservation. They claim the area to be an ancient holy site. On some days I commute through it via Wildcat Canyon Road. They have a giant casino and resort there. There is a daily convoy of giant busses from San Diego to there and back. They have drained the local water table to irrigate the golf course and they have a drag strip used every weekend by professional race car drivers. The noise can be heard for many miles throughout all the neighboring residential areas. They have the largest motorcycle racing course in the county and it has been repeatedly cited by the feds for enviromental polution, and their answer has been the feds don't have jurisdiction, with no effort to clean it up. They have an entire city built for paintball wars. Everytime we complain, they say it is a sacred site and we have no right to complain.

We were at ground zero during the Cedar Fire in 2003 that burned 3000 homes here. The news media never mentioned that when our firefighters entered the reservation to try to stop the fire from spreading, the trucks were shot up. They said they didn't want them on 'holy ground'.

[quoteBut let's leave that aside. As green space is needed for recreation to improve the quality of life, which is what attracts the people who run those companies, why not preserve green space that has tourist value, that has educational value, that connects people with history?
][/quote]

There is nothing green about their space. The tourist value is profitable to them and is destroying the environment. As far as educational benefit, when I stopped at the reservation museum, I was lectured about my ancestors (who never made it to California) being assholes. According to the docent, the local Indians, before the evil white man came, had everything from jet skis to nuclear power.

I just don't buy any of it.

[Rokcet Scientist]

I live less than one mile (by my GPS) from the boundry of the Barona Indian Reservation. They claim the area to be an ancient holy site. On some days I commute through it via Wildcat Canyon Road. They have a giant casino and resort there. There is a daily convoy of giant busses from San Diego to there and back. They have drained the local water table to irrigate the golf course and they have a drag strip used every weekend by professional race car drivers. The noise can be heard for many miles throughout all the neighboring residential areas. They have the largest motorcycle racing course in the county and it has been repeatedly cited by the feds for enviromental polution, and their answer has been the feds don't have jurisdiction, with no effort to clean it up. They have an entire city built for paintball wars. Everytime we complain, they say it is a sacred site and we have no right to complain.

We were at ground zero during the Cedar Fire in 2003 that burned 3000 homes here. The news media never mentioned that when our firefighters entered the reservation to try to stop the fire from spreading, the trucks were shot up. They said they didn't want them on 'holy ground'.

But let's leave that aside. As green space is needed for recreation to improve the quality of life, which is what attracts the people who run those companies, why not preserve green space that has tourist value, that has educational value, that connects people with history?

There is nothing green about their space. The tourist value is profitable to them and is destroying the environment. As far as educational benefit, when I stopped at the reservation museum, I was lectured about my ancestors (who never made it to California) being assholes. According to the docent, the local Indians, before the evil white man came, had everything from jet skis to nuclear power.

Shows they're even more stupid and short-sighted than the white man, doesn't it? Either that, or they invented hypocrisy and lying.
And the white man is supposed to have respect for that 'culture'...?

[E.P. Grondine]

I live less than one mile (by my GPS) from the boundary of the Barona Indian Reservation. They claim the area to be an ancient holy site. On some days I commute through it via Wildcat Canyon Road. They have a giant casino and resort there. There is a daily convoy of giant buses from San Diego to there and back. They have drained the local water table to irrigate the golf course and they have a drag strip used every weekend by professional race car drivers. The noise can be heard for many miles throughout all the neighboring residential areas. They have the largest motorcycle racing course in the county and it has been repeatedly cited by the feds for environmental pollution, and their answer has been the feds don't have jurisdiction, with no effort to clean it up. They have an entire city built for paintball wars. Everytime we complain, they say it is a sacred site and we have no right to complain.

We were at ground zero during the Cedar Fire in 2003 that burned 3000 homes here. The news media never mentioned that when our firefighters entered the reservation to try to stop the fire from spreading, the trucks were shot up. They said they didn't want them on 'holy ground'.

There is nothing green about their space. The tourist value is profitable to them and is destroying the environment. As far as educational benefit, when I stopped at the reservation museum, I was lectured about my ancestors (who never made it to California) being assholes. According to the docent, the local Indians, before the evil white man came, had everything from jet skis to nuclear power.

I just don't buy any of it.

It is not my place to comment on any of this. That said -

I do not mean to question your quotes, but since no one builds moto-cross tracks on sacred sites, I doubt if they're claiming its a sacred site. They are tribal lands, though. They do have an absolute right to use their land as they see fit. The feds don't have jurisdiction.

If I remember, the original Barona lands and water were taken for a reservoir to serve the city of San Diego and they then bought the old Spanish hacienda. Perhaps the real issue here is the water supply for that residential subdivision, and their fears of more nearby residential expansion, taking even more water, and thus making their remaining lands useless.

[E.P. Grondine]

Shows they're even more stupid and short-sighted than the white man, doesn't it? Either that, or they invented hypocrisy and lying. And the white man is supposed to have respect for that 'culture'...?

RS, it is not my place to comment on this. But that said, I think we're only hearing one side.