The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

[E.P. Grondine]

why ancient peoples would make up stories about stuff falling from the skies and killing large numbers of people

I don't know. Why did the ancient Greeks make up stories about Zeus hurling thunderbolts?

Why did the Ancient Romans make up stories about their founders being put in boats as babies and cast adrift? Why did the Akkadians do the same? Why did the Jews? Your problem is that if you want to see everything as a cosmic impact you then have to explain all these other stories that the same peoples put out.

Two can play that game.

Zeus hurling thunderbolts is an easy one, min.
Whereby you yourself pretty much prove my points.
I would have examined it in detail in "Man and Impact in Europe".

As far as the babies in boats goes, it is usual for people to make up noble pasts for their leaders.

That they should use boats in many cases may perhaps indicate that these leaders came from marginal fishing peoples.
Or is there some Jungian explanation you would prefer to speculate on?

Since you are concerned with sources for the Bible and ancient Jewish history, here goes. My current working hypothesis is that
the Jewish peoples had their source in southern Ebla outliers, down by the copper sources. They allied with the Hyksos to provide
a communication route to the east of Egypt proper between them and the Nubian peoples to the south of Egypt.
But all of that is a long way from where my current research focus is.

Now it appears that your apparat for working with any oral corpus is only based on Biblical, Ancient Near Eastern, and late European examples.
Mine is not.

In general, please remember that if you are examining the development of myths,
it helps is you understand the actual events that occurred when those myths first started.

[E.P. Grondine]

A reminder as to how limited the sample size was.
Taking and preparing samples is quite expensive;
We'll see if the Hunaboo account above is confirmed by sample densities, and if it leads to impact structures.

[E.P. Grondine]

I do not know Hancock's source for this image, but note again the TWO temperature effects.

[Tiompan]

The source of the graphic is global warming sceptic Prof. Don J. Easterbrook, from an article in
the alt “news” outlet Global research .
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-coo ... here/10783

Obviously it shows the impact of the YD centering on Greenland and derived from ice cores from various sites including the highest points in the mountains in the centre of that country .
The impact there was quite different from that of Asia Minor / Anatolia . E.g. , Gobekli Tepe is nearly 6,000 Km from Greenland , it is over 2000m lower in altitude from the Summit site that produced the data in and is approx 40 degrees nearer the equator . At the most basic level “Plotting Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies against latitude shows that climate anomalies increased in magnitude toward the poles “ from “The Younger Dryas Climate Event” A.E.Carlson in the Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science .
As has been mentioned here previously ,
(see
"Change and Stability in an uncertain environment:Foraging strategies in the Levant from the early Natufian to PPNB " :Arlene Rosen .
Small game , the Younger Dryas ,and the transition to agriculture in the southern levant :Natalie Munro .
The role of the younger dryas in the origin of agriculture in west Asia :Offer Bar-Yosef . ) the impact of the YD in Anatolia was nothing like that of Greenland , there is even ample evidence from burial remains from the period and they show no signs of nutritional deficiencies infectious diseases or even trauma .
Fringe attempts to connect GT to the YD are pathetic and those that do make life more difficult for themselves by providing errors elsewhere in their efforts that make the job of refuting that much simpler . The recent Sweatman /Edinburgh Uni effort is a fine example .
Look at the dates for the end of the YD on the graphic and compare with the date of build of GT .
The end of the YD was approx 11,500 BP /9500 BC
The oldest reliable date from GT is 9314 BC . GT was built after the end YD event in an area where it had much less impact than further north and west .

[E.P. Grondine]

The source of the graphic is global warming sceptic Prof. Don J. Easterbrook, from an article in
the alt “news” outlet Global research .
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-coo ... here/10783

Obviously it shows the impact of the YD centering on Greenland and derived from ice cores from various sites including the highest points in the mountains in the centre of that country.

Well, tiompan, thank you very much for that. Since it is an "alt" site likely by global warming sceptics,
now I'll have to check to see if the underlying data is any good.

If that data is from Greenland, then it should reflect the melt water pulses from the North American ice sheet.

The impact there was quite different from that of Asia Minor /Anatolia . E.g. , Gobekli Tepe is nearly 6,000 Km from Greenland , it is over 2000m lower in altitude from the Summit site that produced the data in and is approx 40 degrees nearer the equator. At the most basic level “Plotting Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies against latitude shows that climate anomalies increased in magnitude toward the poles “ from “The Younger Dryas Climate Event” A.E.Carlson in the Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science .

If by "impact" you mean the "effects on climate" by two discrete cometary impact events, then we agree entirely.
That said, the 10,850 BCE impact event caused a global dust loading of the atmosphere,
which led to a climate collapse which killed off the mega fauna globally,
including any which lived in the GT region.
Did any mega fauna live there?
Were there any mega fauna hunters?

While I can no longer provide direct citations off the top of my head,
I will state that Native American peoples remembered not being able to store collected foodstuffs
because mega fauna would smell the stores and attack to get at those stores.

As has been mentioned here previously ,
(see
"Change and Stability in an uncertain environment:Foraging strategies in the Levant from the early Natufian to PPNB " :Arlene Rosen .
Small game , the Younger Dryas ,and the transition to agriculture in the southern levant :Natalie Munro .
The role of the younger dryas in the origin of agriculture in west Asia :Offer Bar-Yosef . ) the impact of the YD in Anatolia was nothing like that of Greenland , there is even ample evidence from burial remains from the period and they show no signs of nutritional deficiencies infectious diseases or even trauma .
Fringe attempts to connect GT to the YD are pathetic and those that do make life more difficult for themselves by providing errors elsewhere in their efforts that make the job of refuting that much simpler . The recent Sweatman /Edinburgh Uni effort is a fine example .
Look at the dates for the end of the YD on the graphic and compare with the date of build of GT .
The end of the YD was approx 11,500 BP /9500 BC

tiompan, I do not use the term Younger Dryas, as earlier it was so poorly defined by the paleo climatologists as to be useless.
Some placed it here in time, others there in time, and this behavior continues.

Fletcher and myself work in an area and time of change from hunter gatherers to settled agriculture.
This data provides a very convenient check on near eastern data and hypothesis.

The oldest reliable date from GT is 9314 BC. GT was built after the end YD event in an area where it had much less impact than further north and west.

tiompan, you keep confusing "impact" with "effect".
In my frame of reference, this is like confusing "believe" with "think".

Regarding carbon 14 dating,
note that fast neutrons are produced in large hyper velocity impacts.
I do not know if any comet fragments hit near GT.
I need geologic cores from GT with Platinum Group analysis before I can trust the teams' carbon 14 calibrations.
I also want phytolith sequences firmly established from those cores.
Bones are not phytoliths.

That said, clearly we have not reached the lowest levels of the GT site yet.
In addition to that, I suspect that the first preceding structures may have been made of wood from large trees,
with those wood elements replaced by stone elements
following deforestation in the area.

Lastly, in your analysis,
you have not taken into account the effects of rising sea levels
on people living in nearby marine environments.
Based on data from the Americas,
this range limitation in your analysis is not well founded.

Nor have you faced up to the effect of the global climate collapse at 10,850 BCE.

Finally, it is clear that at GT we are dealing with "magical" thinking of some type.
Right now Flecther and my ow estimate is based on the two plaques,
and the structures themselves.

As a general principle, I always take the lack of data into account when building hypothesis.

[Tiompan]

The impact there was quite different from that of Asia Minor / Anatolia . E.g. , Gobekli Tepe is nearly 6,000 Km from Greenland , it is over 2000m lower in altitude from the Summit site that produced the data in and is approx 40 degrees nearer the equator . At the most basic level “Plotting Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies against latitude shows that climate anomalies increased in magnitude toward the poles “ from “The Younger Dryas Climate Event” A.E.Carlson in the Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science .

If by "impact" you mean the "effects on climate" by two discrete cometary impact events, then we agree entirely.

EP ,
No , I didn't refer to cometary impact events . I was clearly referring only to the "Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies " .

[E.P. Grondine]

Well, tiompan, when you work out the causes of those "anomalies", get back to me.

[Tiompan]

The only one who is confused is yourself EP .
The use of the term impact in relation to changes in climate during the YD makes perfect sense .
I'll wait and see what the archaeologists discover at the site . I don't see why I should give any heed to your beliefs about what may be found at GT .
These beliefs are no different to your interpretations of the plaques .
Neither are based on any knowledge of the subject matters and like all ill informed interpretations tell us more about you than the subject


There was no"global climate collapse at 10,850 BCE.". Again for the umpteenth time , the impact of the YD was not uniform across the globe .


What analysis ?
If you have a problem with anything that was said provide a quote then refute it .
GT is 250km from the nearest sea , any one living there would not be "nearby" .

[Tiompan]

I'll leave the "working out " of the causes of the anomalies to those that are likely to know about the subject .
It's a waste of time and space to tell those with an agenda , as the reality just doesn't intrude .

[E.P. Grondine]

I'll leave the "working out " of the causes of the anomalies to those that are likely to know about the subject .
It's a waste of time and space to tell those with an agenda , as the reality just doesn't intrude .

Yes, tiompan, unfortunately this exchange with you about PPN-B environment has become a complete waste of time.
My reality includes recent comet and asteroid impacts with the Earth,
while yours do not.
What I see as data for them are completely invisible to you,
and that is likely to continue until some particular piece of evidence compels a change in your perception.

[E.P. Grondine]

The only one who is confused is yourself EP .

Perhaps it is the other way around, tiompan.

The use of the term impact in relation to changes in climate during the YD makes perfect sense .

The only person talking about the Younger Dryas here is you, tiompan.
I do not use the term "Younger Dryas", as there is significant disagreement among paleo-climatolgists about its definition.
I myself now use Melt Water Pulse 1A and Meltwater Pulse 1B, and Holocene Start,
as geologists have uniform definitions for them.

I'll wait and see what the archaeologists discover at the site . I don't see why I should give any heed to your beliefs about what may be found at GT .
These beliefs are no different to your interpretations of the plaques .
Neither are based on any knowledge of the subject matters and like all ill informed interpretations tell us more about you than the subject

tiompan, I also do not use the word "believe", and I restrict its use to religious contexts.

Yes, my estimates are not data, and I always clearly identify them.
The problem with the existing carbon 14 dates from Gobekli Tepe
is that fast neutrons are produced in large hypervelocity impacts,
and that is why geological cores are desperately needed.

Like you, I look forward to more data from the site and surrounding area.
A few more plaques will likely clear a lot of things up.

There was no"global climate collapse at 10,850 BCE.".

tiompan, geological ages have been defined by life forms for a long time now,
since its start as a science.
The mega fauna go extinct globally, whether man is present or not.
The cause of that extinction was most likely lack of food,
as mega-fauna required large amounts of it,
and the cause of that lack of food was a global climate collapse
caused by the dust load from comet fragment impacts with the Earth.

We know this from the geological cores,
and particularly from the platinum layer found.

Again for the umpteenth time , the impact of the YD was not uniform across the globe .

There you go babbling about "THE Younger Dryas" again,tiompan.
But yes, certainly the effects of neither of the two impact events was not uniform.

GT is 250km from the nearest sea, any one living there would not be "nearby" .

250 km is not that far for people.
Take a look at flint trade distances.

[Tiompan]

No ,as is so often the case , the confusion is all yours EP . You simply don't understand the meaning of impact .

You posted a link to the Hancock image obviously related to the Younger Dryas (the term is used twice in the graphic ), I pointed out the source , and that it was what I am talking about . If you can see anything wrong in my comments about the YD quote then refute .

EP wrote “A few more plaques will likely clear a lot of things up.“
Again , it will only provide more ill informed over interpretation .As you have been told many times , anyone can play game of providing a “meaning” for symbols . Relatively well versed art historians get it wrong when attempting to interpret material from their own period , culture, language and artistic traditions and access to the artists . What hope has someone with no knowledge of the rock art symbols of the time and place ,or the archaeology , living 10k yrs later , complete with an agenda and an over active imagination getting it right ?
“It happens all the time the most common motifs in rock art from all periods and in all parts of the world get over interpreted by those with little knowledge of rock art but do have an agenda .The over interpretations suits suit their interests whilst ignoring that bias ,context , the corpus , ethnography and what serious researchers have to say . Most researchers just shrug their shoulders and ignore the fantasies . “


You said “the effects of rising sea levels on people living in nearby marine environments. “that is nothing to do with the flint trade or travel . The nearest sea to GT was 250 km you didn't provide any data for the rise ,neither a date nor the change in height , then you dreamt it would have some effect on GT .

EP wrote “I also do not use the word "believe", and I restrict its use to religious contexts.”
Not only do you have a problem understanding the use of impact you have a similar problem with “believe” . Your restriction on use has no bearing on the meaning or how others use the word .
I used the word in relation to your views on what might be found at GT and your ill informed over interpretation re. the plaques .
Look at the definition :1)accept that (something) is true, especially without proof. 2)hold (something) as an opinion; think. Believe and think are inextricably linked including in a non religious sense .

[Tiompan]

It has been obvious here that the exchange has been a complete waste of time .
Any knowledge , no matter how limited , of recent comet and asteroid impacts does not translate into an understanding of prehistory , archaeoastonomy , rock art , GT etc .i.e. what is being discussed here .

[E.P. Grondine]

good morning, Captain Oblivious.

It appears to have escaped your notice
that this thread deals with an entirely different topic than GT.
That is pretty much par for you.

But I will concede that it does deal with the same planet.

I must be doing something very right
to receive so many insults from you.
You know, you could but my book "Man and Impact in the Americas",
and insult me on Amazon.
But you'd have to use your real name in full.

I am pretty use to this kind of behavior by now,
and know full well that it goes with the territory.
But I do wonder how Darwin handled this kind of crap,
hefted at hims by other shit slinging chimps.

Thanks for your input.

PS - The nice thing about footnotes is that you can always blame your mistakes on others.

[Tiompan]

You are off again .Evasion and failure to highlight problems with quotes and refutation .
It is tiresome wastes time and space and invites calls for a halt or deletion , maybe that is what you want ,removal of the embarrassing comments .
The evasion this time was about your confusion re. the definition and use of " impact "and "belief" ,
the fact that my mention of the YD was directly related to the graphic you supplied which highlighted the term , the mistaken belief in a "global climate collapse at 10,850 BCE." and the constantly avoided problems about over interpretation or any ill informed interpretation .

These problems were supported by quotes and data .
These are not baseless insults , they are facts highlighting your errors .

In response all we get is insults , or hilarious comparisons with Darwin but no quotes or data .
Btw , Darwin could deal with data .
What is the next comparison ? , the alt crowd usually choose Galileo or Einstein , whilst readers have their own more accurate versions .