Current Biblical Archaeology

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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

what motivation would she have to say' the Bible is true'?
She was there in the 1950's which was the hey-day of bible based archaeology. Her findings bucked the trend. That takes a bit of courage in the peer-review dominated field of archaeology plus you had all the bible-thumpers jumping on her.

The fact that she was able to win support for her position suggests to me that she met the standard of "extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims."

BTW, the British museum's finding had nothing to do with the later c14 test on the cereal grains.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

The fact that she was able to win support for her position suggests to me that she met the standard of "extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims
that is not an accomplishment given the anti-Bible consensus among archaeologists.
She was there in the 1950's which was the hey-day of bible based archaeology. Her findings bucked the trend. That takes a bit of courage in the peer-review dominated field of archaeology plus you had all the bible-thumpers jumping on her
there are always people who go against the crowd in every generation, she was the catalyst for a growing trend in archaeology that sought to discredit the Bible
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

that is not an accomplishment given the anti-Bible consensus among archaeologists.

I doubt that you could make a compelling case for that in the 1950's. That was the age of Yadin, Aharoni and Mazar and they are the guys who were overturned by Finkelstein in the late 80's.

there are always people who go against the crowd in every generation, she was the catalyst for a growing trend in archaeology that sought to discredit the Bible

Probably true and thank goodness that there are such people who are willing to risk their reputations to go against the grain. Archaeology would be a dull field if everyone had the same level of curiosity as the Hall of Maat, wouldn't it?

In any case, that others picked up the ball is not her fault. She was dead long before Finkelstein's surveys were conducted.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

That was the age of Yadin, Aharoni and Mazar and they are the guys who were overturned by Finkelstein in the late 80's.
this is where i will disagree with you, i do not think that finkelsstein overturned anything espcially when his own professors prove him wrong.

i just think that finkelstein was able to package his theory in an attractive manner which appealed to those who do not believe or cannot accept the Biblical record.
Archaeology would be a dull field if everyone had the same level of curiosity as the Hall of Maat, wouldn't it?
you said it, i didn't. i have to explore thatsite a bit more as i am sure i missed the exciting stuff.
In any case, that others picked up the ball is not her fault. She was dead long before Finkelstein's surveys were conducted
true enough and many jumped on her bandwagon because it probably relieved them of a lot of stress. i am also not a fan of her dig innovation. i think that it leaves too much information buried which could be used to lend light to what is being unearthed.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

archaeologist wrote:
That was the age of Yadin, Aharoni and Mazar and they are the guys who were overturned by Finkelstein in the late 80's.
this is where i will disagree with you, i do not think that finkelsstein overturned anything espcially when his own professors prove him wrong.

You are out of step with archaeology. You are allowing your desire to have the OT proven 'true' to cloud your reason.

i just think that finkelstein was able to package his theory in an attractive manner which appealed to those who do not believe or cannot accept the Biblical record.

Why should it be accepted when there is nothing to back it up?
Archaeology would be a dull field if everyone had the same level of curiosity as the Hall of Maat, wouldn't it?
you said it, i didn't. i have to explore thatsite a bit more as i am sure i missed the exciting stuff.

:wink:
In any case, that others picked up the ball is not her fault. She was dead long before Finkelstein's surveys were conducted
true enough and many jumped on her bandwagon because it probably relieved them of a lot of stress. i am also not a fan of her dig innovation. i think that it leaves too much information buried which could be used to lend light to what is being unearthed.
Again, there is a sense of desperation coming through. These are scientists...many of them Israeli scientists...who nonetheless have gone where the evidence is, not where their heritage would want them to go. [/b]
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Essan »

Exactly

Science - look at the evidence. All the evidence. And then draw a conclusion based on that evidence.

Religion - draw a conclusion. Discard all evidence that does not support the conclusion as meaningless, misinterpreted or outright fraud.

Most of the former are religious. Non of the latter are scientists.

If you firmly believe the Bible to be absolutely correct but your archaeological discoveries indicate that this is not the case, then you either lie about your discoveries or accept your Bible may not be wholly correct.

No one has ever set out to disprove the Bible. Many have set out to prove it. And failed. And nowadays people just set out - with no intent either way. They find the evidence and draw their conclusion. If it supports the Bible (or any other ancient text), all well and good. If not, then so be it.
Frank Harrist

Post by Frank Harrist »

Essan wrote:Exactly

Science - look at the evidence. All the evidence. And then draw a conclusion based on that evidence.

Religion - draw a conclusion. Discard all evidence that does not support the conclusion as meaningless, misinterpreted or outright fraud.

Most of the former are religious. Non of the latter are scientists.

If you firmly believe the Bible to be absolutely correct but your archaeological discoveries indicate that this is not the case, then you either lie about your discoveries or accept your Bible may not be wholly correct.

No one has ever set out to disprove the Bible. Many have set out to prove it. And failed. And nowadays people just set out - with no intent either way. They find the evidence and draw their conclusion. If it supports the Bible (or any other ancient text), all well and good. If not, then so be it.
Very well said, Essan. I'm sure arch will not buy it, but you summed it up perfectly. Exercise your denial, muscle, arch.
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Post by Guest »

Non of the latter are scientists
that is not true at all.
Science - look at the evidence. All the evidence. And then draw a conclusion based on that evidence.
i would have to doubt that especially when i find so much evidence discarded and ignored. this is what you want to believe is happening but in reality it doesn't.
Religion - draw a conclusion
nor is this true. christianity has the answers and the place to go for the answers and for our daily lives we really don't need the details but we are supposed to live like Christ. the details are needed when we have to talk to those outside the faith 'to give an answer why we believe' and for those times we need to strengthen our faith.

the secular world, whether they acknowledge it or not, have influences upon them which enable them to think they are pursuing the answers when in reality, they miss the mark. (as has been demonstrated in the many quotes provided). there is no motivation to interpret according to the Bible and many of their , or most of, interpretations come from the bias of their previously held beliefs, their pre-drawn suppositions and their lack of faith, plus the restrictions they place upon their work and field of endeavor.

with such operating standards it is not hard to see why they would come up with conclusins that differ from the Biblical record. case in point:

taken from the Path of the Pole by Charles Hapgood pg. 290-1

"In a limestone cavern on the borders of the lagoa do Sumidouro, some three leagues from Santa Lucia, Dr. P.W. Lund excavated the bones of more than thirty individuals (human) of both sexes and various ages. The skeletons lay buried in hard clay overlying the original red soil forming the floor of the cave and were found mixed together in great confusion--not only with one another but with the remians of the Megatherium and other Pleistocene mammals...All the bones, whether human or animal showed evidence of having been contemporary with one another.

In other caves investigated by Lund, bones of ancient manwere found alongside those of the formidable Smilodon, a giant feline which became extinct during the last Pleistocene times. Referring to the evidence from these and other Brazillian fossiliferrous caves, Marquis de Nadaillac wrote:
'...Doubtless these men and animals lived together and perished together, common victims of catastrophes, the time and cause of which are alike unknown'(42:25
Two further cases are of particular interest. The first of these concerns the discovery, by Savage-Landor, of the remains of primitive humanoid mammals, associated with the bones of creatures regarded by him as giganticsaurians, in volcanic ash and lava deposits encountered in Matto Grosso State (34:vol. i, 371-4)
The second case relates tothe occurance of the remains of mastodons, camels and an extinct species of horse in beds of volcanic ash high in the andes near punin in Ecuador. Associated with these mammalian bones was the fossilized skull of a woman of Australoid type (33:311-2). This cranium, which is dolichocephalous (9:145) was scientifically described in 1925 by Dr. Louis R. Sullivan and Milo Hellman (51) and has since become generally known as the 'Punin' skull.
The presence of an Australoid type in Ecuadorian South America during geologically recent times poses questions about prehistoric human popluations in the continent...The critical importance of the Punin and Matto Grosso discoveries in the present context, however, lies in the stark demonstration that in South America human and animal denizens of the late Pleistocene world were exposed to, and perished by, geological upheavals of inconceiveable violence and extent."

let's do an experiment. you know what my interpretation is going tobe and yes i can relate this to the genesis account but let's see how objective and honest you all are at interpretating the evidence described in this quote. do not let the words Pleistocene or megatherium, among others, influence your conclusions but really try to be biased free and post your conclusions here

i am curious as to how objective you really are and how much you letthe evidence speak.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

Okay, I'll play.
"In a limestone cavern on the borders of the lagoa do Sumidouro, some three leagues from Santa Lucia, Dr. P.W. Lund excavated the bones of more than thirty individuals (human) of both sexes and various ages. The skeletons lay buried in hard clay overlying the original red soil forming the floor of the cave and were found mixed together in great confusion--not only with one another but with the remians of the Megatherium and other Pleistocene mammals...All the bones, whether human or animal showed evidence of having been contemporary with one another.

What is most interesting about this is that either Lund failed to mention or Hapgood failed to report, whether or not the bones of the animals showed signs of having been eaten. Megatherium was a large herbivore which died out some 8000 years bc. It is not hard to imagine humans hunting it as we already know they went after mammoth. In either case, most human habitations are associated with animal bones so without knowing if they were eating them....or eaten by them.... it is hard to draw any conclusion based on that alone.

Now, I know you want to believe that this is an example of flood residue and that is one possible interpretation but certainly not the only one.

Just off the top of my head:

a- an attack by a rival clan. The dead and wounded were left, the survivors carried away.

b- some sort of environmental problem such as smoke buildup had the cave's venting system been blocked. Bones were subsequently strewn about by predators.

c- The cave was abandoned by a group which buried its dead in the cave.

d- A carbon dioxide buildup and release from the nearby lake which suffocated the inhabitants. That has happened recently.

However, the notion that a flood could pick up a megatherium (which was the size of an elephant) and with precision accuracy drop it and all other sorts of animals in the cave with the human victims is possible....if somewhat unlikely. I give it 1 in a 100.

Now, Lund's initial work was done in 1842/43. Much as Darwin, some few years later, his early work and opinion was subsequently verified by modern scholars. I know you don't like C14 dating but your boy, Lund, was borne out by it.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/51/18309
Since the excavations of Peter Lund at Sumidouro Cave in 1842/1843, the human skeletal remains recovered in Lagoa Santa have been assumed to be of great antiquity (6). However, only very recently has this assertion proved to be correct. From the original excavations of Lund until 1969, the only indication of an early date for the human skeletons found in Lagoa Santa was the cooccurrence in Sumidouro Cave of human and megafauna skeletal remains apparently deposited in the same sedimentary levels (7). A similar phenomenon was also observed by Harold Walter in the inner chamber of Mortuaria cave in 1935 (8).

The first professional archaeological excavations in Lagoa Santa were carried out by Wesley Hurt and Oldemar Blasi in 1956 (9). They were unable to find any association between human and megafauna remains in the seven rock-shelters excavated by them at Cerca Grande, the largest limestone outcrop in the region. However, many years after their fieldwork, two radiocarbon dates were reported by them (10). These two dates (9,720 ± 128 and 9,028 ± 120), obtained in Rock-Shelter 6, were the first direct evidence that a large number of human skeletons found in that area, including those uncovered by Hurt and Blasi in Cerca Grande, could be in fact of final Pleistocene/Early Holocene age.

BTW, this find is going a long way towards adding to the debate about the population of the Americas as carbon dates of 9720 and 9028 in an area as far south as south central Brazil would seem to hammer a nail in the coffin of a Bering Strait crossing alone.

Nonetheless, judging from the continued human habitation of the area is seems extraordinarily unlikely that the whole population of the world was wiped out except for Noah and his handful of survivors in Turkey as there is evidence of continued human occupation of the area.

I'll get to your second example later.

I applaud your utilization (finally) of real archaeological data, however.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

I suppose you are hanging your hat on this line:
The critical importance of the Punin and Matto Grosso discoveries in the present context, however, lies in the stark demonstration that in South America human and animal denizens of the late Pleistocene world were exposed to, and perished by, geological upheavals of inconceiveable violence and extent."

First off, the Marquis de Nadaillac was writing in the first half of the 19th century so, science was in its infancy. "Smilodon" being the technical name for a "Saber-toothed tiger" which we know co-existed with modern humans.

Anyway, the selected passages give absolutely no evidence of "geological upheavals of inconceiveable violence." Moreover, there is no evidence that humanity was ever completely wiped out on the North or South American continents to be re-populated later on by Noah's offspring.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

well you were the one person i thought wouldn't try andi will give you the following:
What is most interesting about this is that either Lund failed to mention or Hapgood failed to report, whether or not the bones of the animals showed signs of having been eaten
as it is a possibility.

your other answers are also possibilities though they failed to take into account the multiple sites and countries. your point 'a' would be a good option if we knew that the animals were eaten and ansd not thrown in with the humans due to water action of receding flood waters.

in 'c' the cave, i think, would have been organized a lot better if they used it as a burial site but doesn't account for the animal bones strewn about. every grave site i have visited has always been neat, orderly and clutter removed.

'b' would be a possibility for one site but not all

your 'd' sounds good but i don't think there was a lake nearby
Nonetheless, judging from the continued human habitation of the area is seems extraordinarily unlikely that the whole population of the world was wiped out except for Noah and his handful of survivors
it is possible that with the rising waters that both human and animal took refuge in the cave in hopes of being saved from the deluge. common fear kept them from responding to natural instinct.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

your 'd' sounds good but i don't think there was a lake nearby

Lagoa do Sumidouro means Sumidouro Lagoon in Portuguese.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

Lagoa do Sumidouro means Sumidouro Lagoon in Portuguese
so yu are saying that a lagoon is the same size as a lake? and it would be capable of emitting cardon dioxide strong enough, with the wind blowing in exactly the right direction to do such damage?

anyways i will wait now to see if anyone else responds with their interpretations. i am curious as to how others would respond to this 'challenge'.
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Post by Minimalist »

You cn check this out while you're waiting.


http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/s ... cor158.htm
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

You cn check this out while you're waiting.
i will do that. i hope others will give a crack at it as i would like to see how they piece things together and i am not looking to criticize anyone, i am honestly curious how people interpret that evidence.

as for not mentioning the catastrophe, it was not in the section i took the quote from and may be later in the book.
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