"Land Bridge" theory?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:54 am

That spear point is truly a puzzle. The pic of the tools? at 200k may or may not be man? made but they certainly appear to be useable.
One thing puzzles me about the argument as to whether some of these finds are a result of human intervention, or geological forces, is that if water was involved I wouldn't expect to see sharp edges, and none of the flints I've found looked remotely like tools, even those that had been ploughed out of the ground and subject to impact damage didn't seem to have broken into anything like tools.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:09 pm

Charlie Hatchett wrote:
Hold on you chaps, could you back up a piece. All this is new to me. Tools 200000yrs old in the Americas, am I reading this right?
This is way, way, before the presumed beginnings of HSS, so who are we looking at? Erectus? Or are several reputations about to bite the dust and we find a new species?
It's a maddening, completely fascinating situation at Hueyatlaco.

Here's a bifacial spearpoint found in situ by Cynthia Irwin-Williams:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... biface.TIF

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/00043.png

Courtesy of Steen-McIntyre

The point was secured by strata dated between 250,000 B.P. (low end- USGS and Donelick) to 1.1 million B.P. (high end- Berkeley/ Renne).

I've never heard of Erectus possessing spear point technology. Puzzling, indeed...

I agree Charlie that spearpoints have not been found in their toolkit before. He could make and control fire, knap flint into axes and knives and scrapers, and according to Bednarik, could traverse the open sea.

Maybe the group that made it to the Americas' was a bit more industrious and enterprising. That piece you displayed was made by a human though.

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:53 pm

spearpoints have not been found in their toolkit before

Perhaps the key word is "found?"

Really, once you have a sharp stick for hunting and also have sharpened stone tools, how much of an intellectual leap is it to put them together.

Compared to knapping the stone in the first place it seems like a minor technical accomplishment.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:04 pm

Perhaps the key word is "found?"

Sure Min, no doubt about it. I can't remember if Erectus was a big game hunter or not. The decision to acquire that kind of weapon depends on the need for one.

He may have been mainly a fisherman, for instance.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:09 pm

That spear point is truly a puzzle. The pic of the tools? at 200k may or may not be man? made but they certainly appear to be useable.

I think your speaking of the Calico artifacts, Digit. They're a bit more controversial, but some of the Calico artifacts are no brainers:

http://calicodig.com/node/view/42

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:38 pm

Perhaps the key word is "found"?

Yup, or recognize.

Here's a quote from an archeologist at OU:

Hi Charlie,
I've looked over the various images. The preclovis artifacts do not
conform to any defined type that I am aware of. But that is probably
because I only see similar objects in mixed contexts where the
artifacts are deflated to a single layer, usually bedrock, and we just
assign them to the general archaic. If this site is near where Collins
is working, then he would be your best bet for information on similar
contexts and styles. Thanks for sending the images. Sorry I
couldn't help you with identifying them.

From: Hatchett Talent Agency
Date: 09/12/06 19:06:30
To: steve.tomka@utsa.edu; raymond.mauldin@utsa.edu; cindy.munoz@utsa.edu; Theresa.DelaGarza@tx.ngb.army.mil; dawn.ramsey@tx.ngb.army.mil; marybeth.tomka@utsa.edu
Subject: Update on Brushy Creek Site: Central Texas Paleo Artifacts

-------Original Message-------

From: Hatchett Talent Agency
Date: 09/12/06 08:41:06
To: Dr. Mike Collins; Dr. Mike Waters; Dr. Jim Adovasio; Dr. Dennis Stanford; Dr. Al Goodyear; Dr. Mario Pino; Dr. Tom Dillehay
Cc: Dr. Steve Kissin- Lakehead University-Ontario; Dr. Jim Bischoff
Subject: Update on Brushy Creek Site: Central Texas Paleo Artifacts

Greetings Gentlemen.

I want to update you on the latest finds eroding out of Pleistocene terrace gravels in Central Texas:

Leaf shaped, stemmed projectile points:

I.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20273.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20274.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20275.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20276.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20277.jpg

II.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... e%2014.jpg

III.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... e%2015.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... e%2016.jpg

IV.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... e%2017.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... e%2018.jpg

Any advice concerning the typology of these pieces will be much appreciated. Also any general input and requests for more data are more than welcomed.

Thanks for your valuable time.

Respectfully,

Charlie Hatchett
PreClovis, Clovis and Archaic Artifacts
1-877-252-2351/ 1-512-453-6178 ( Austin)
charlie@preclovis.com / www.preclovis.com

The decision to acquire that kind of weapon depends on the need for one.

Excellent point, Beag. Why would fishermen need a huge spearpoint, for example.

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:49 pm

Why would fishermen need a huge spearpoint, for example.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:54 pm

thats small fry
try this

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:59 pm

... O.K., O.K., your point is understood!!

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:01 pm

I think the spear point, in context, makes perfect sense. As a fisherman, Erectus, or any other species capable of deliberately sharpening a stick to point will soon use it as a fish spear, from there the spear point would, I think, follow logically.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:04 pm

Flint points are not that good for fishing Digit. A tri-pointed gig or a bone harpoon point are usually used.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:10 pm

I accept that Beag, a pointed stick is probably even worse, but what I meant was that a pointed stick increases your reach but is rather fragile. If you are already using flint, for eg, a flint point would probably seem worth a try. If the point passed clean through a fish I would expect it not to slide off quite so easily. There must have been many failed attempts at all levels of tool making I imagine.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:37 pm

There must have been many failed attempts at all levels of tool making I imagine.

I agree with that Digit.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:43 am

Quote:
There must have been many failed attempts at all levels of tool making I imagine.

And probaly a lot of success's that we haven't found or admitted to. IE the NA hand axe!

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:55 am

Good point.