Deleted

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:32 pm

Plenty of nicely rounded river rocks in there. Your hand axe must have stood out like a sore thumb.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:34 pm

Plenty of nicely rounded river rocks in there. Your hand axe must have stood out like a sore thumb.

Yup. The proximal end was sticking out.

Proximal end at the top, in this photo.

I'll get some better strat shots when it stops raining, and dries out. Those were the best I could do for now.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:37 pm

Thanks to Michelle for posting that. I'll email and see what I get.

Cool. Let's see what they say.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:36 pm

Looks like we're going deeper.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:28 am

Manystones wrote:Neolithic - how exactly with an isolated find like this does the local Finds Liaison Officer Laura Mclean reach this conclusion?

My experience with the Portable Antiquities Scheme (PAS) was simply that most of them lacked the confidence to date anything earlier than "possibly Mesolithic or Neolithic".

If you would like Beagle I can send you a copy of my thread on the PAS Forum Board before the thread was pulled without following the rules and the board itself co-incidentally closed down. Funny because it followed a remark on the website that the scheme had been going well. Additionally I have correspondence where I have tried to hold someone to account for the unauthorised withdrawal of the thread.... guess what? I haven't had a response.

Richard, I looked at what you sent me. Wow, there are some serious club issues over there. That whole thing was slammed shut over a controversial find!!

I couldn't open the zipped file, and my computer went crazy. I can normally open anything. But I can see that the gov't, or someone, didn't want your piece seen.

Really weird.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:01 pm

This hand ax reminds me of Richard's piece he posted recently:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20536.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Dorsal View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20537.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Ventral View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20538.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20539.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Proximal View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20540.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Lateral View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20541.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Basal View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl

Richard's piece:

Local piece:

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:50 pm

They certainly are similar. What is that red staining?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:27 pm

Pyrite (ocher) staining.

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:41 pm

Not blood?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:09 am

Not blood?

Someone passed this on to me:

At the Anzick-Wilsall site in southwestern
Montana, two children were cremated and buried in a cache of more
than 100 items, including fluted Clovis points, carved bobe
foreshafts, etc. It has 14C dates of 11,115 and 8600 yrs BP (no
explanation for the discrepancy) and amino-acid dates of 10,240-
10,940 BP. It is the only known example of a Clovis burial but,
unfortunately, the cranial fragments don't offer much morphological
information.

References:

Dixon, E.J. (1999). Bones, Boats & Bison: Archaeology and the first
colonization of western North America. Albuquerque: University of New
Mexico Press. (for 14C dating of Anzick))

Fiedel, S.J. (2000). The peopling of the New World: present evidence,
new theories, and future directions. Journal of Archaeological
Research. 8 (1): 39-103. (for amino-acid dating of Anzick).

The cranial fragments are said to have been covered in ocher.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:45 am

so you're saying what
that two children were cremated
and that cranial fragments were later rubbed with ochre
or that they were before they were cremated
that sounds pretty tenuous

http://www.livescience.com/history/0612 ... urial.html

Two separate pits, one containing the remains of two infants [image] and the other of a single baby [image], were discovered at the same Stone Age camp of Krems-Wachtberg in Lower Austria. Both graves were decorated with beads and covered in red ochre, a pigment commonly used by prehistoric peoples as a grave offering when they buried adults.

http://web.unife.it/progetti/notes/emezzoc.htm

A preliminary analysis of the skeleton, wich was well preserved, showed that she had lost her molar teeth from some time as the roots had filled in naturally; possible bone paleo-pathologies on the lower and upper limbs were also remarked.
The burial was covered by more than forty stones of different sizes; they were assembled directly over the body (particularly its upper part) and arranged to form a small tumulus. On some of them, there were traces of red ochre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ochre

have been found at 300,000 year old Homo heidelbergensis sites in France and Czechoslovakia. Neandertal burial sites sometimes include ochre as a grave good
in Swaziland, is a 43,000 year old ochre mine

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:43 am

so you're saying what
that two children were cremated
and that cranial fragments were later rubbed with ochre
or that they were before they were cremated
that sounds pretty tenuous

http://www.livescience.com/history/0612 ... urial.html
Quote:
Two separate pits, one containing the remains of two infants [image] and the other of a single baby [image], were discovered at the same Stone Age camp of Krems-Wachtberg in Lower Austria. Both graves were decorated with beads and covered in red ochre, a pigment commonly used by prehistoric peoples as a grave offering when they buried adults.

http://web.unife.it/progetti/notes/emezzoc.htm
Quote:

A preliminary analysis of the skeleton, wich was well preserved, showed that she had lost her molar teeth from some time as the roots had filled in naturally; possible bone paleo-pathologies on the lower and upper limbs were also remarked.
The burial was covered by more than forty stones of different sizes; they were assembled directly over the body (particularly its upper part) and arranged to form a small tumulus. On some of them, there were traces of red ochre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ochre
Quote:
have been found at 300,000 year old Homo heidelbergensis sites in France and Czechoslovakia. Neandertal burial sites sometimes include ochre as a grave good
in Swaziland, is a 43,000 year old ochre mine

Thanks for the research, Mar.

I've been keepping the possibilty of a cremation ceremony in mind, especially with the amount of ocher being used, and the number of "axes" and choppers.

I've got a buttload of bones on my site, but I suck when it comes to bones.
Some of them are obviously bison, deer, etc...

Here's some of the ones found recently, that appear charred (again, I don't know jack about bones):

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone146.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone147.jpg

________________________________________________________

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone73.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone74.jpg

Then the full collection of bones found to date:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... sbone.html

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... e%202.html

Did you get the .avi to work. I heard from one other person, that their's didn't work. I've heard the DVD files work no problem.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:47 am

so you're saying what
that two children were cremated
and that cranial fragments were later rubbed with ochre
or that they were before they were cremated
that sounds pretty tenuous

Hasn't even been a formal report on it, yet. So, yes, tenuous.

...

Biographies

Dr. Juliet E. Morrow
Juliet E. Morrow is currently a Survey Archeologist with the Arkansas Archeological Survey. Her 1996 doctoral dissertation summarized the evidence for the Peopling of the Americas and focused on the technology and mobility of Clovis and related fluted-point makers. She has directed investigations of dozens of sites in the Midwest and Midsouth, including large-scale excavations at the Martens Clovis camp in St. Louis County, Missouri, the Late Mississippian Greenbrier town near Batesville, Arkansas and the National Geographic-funded King Mastodon site in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Her specialties include lithic technology and osteology. She teaches archeology and anthropology courses at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro and at the annual training program of the Arkansas Archeological Survey/Society. Julie is a vice-president on the executive board of the Missouri Archaeological Society and in 2003 received the MAS award for Public Archeology for excavation of the Martens Clovis camp. In her position with the Survey, she uses her experience in geology and pedology to search for buried Clovis era sites. Recent research includes the study of Clovis tools from the Anzick site----the only known Clovis burial, as well as stone tools from the East Wenatchee, Simon, and Murray Springs Clovis sites...

http://www.clovisinthesoutheast.net/morrow.html

Clovis sites elsewhere give us some insight into ritual and belief systems. In southern Ontario ( Ellis and Deller 1991 ) a cache of about 200 burnt chert implements were discovered in a pit which may represent the remains of a cremation burial. Furthermore, at a Clovis burial site in Montana, powdered red ochre (hematite) was found on the remains of two adolescents and the grave goods that were buried with them. The use of red ochre on burials is an ancient one that extends back to European and Asian traditions. The practice persisted amongst many Aboriginal groups until the 19th century.

http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/ma ... ovis2.html

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:57 am

Did you get the .avi to work. I heard from one other person, that their's didn't work. I've heard the DVD files work no problem

Charlie
because it is such a large file windows media player has problems opening it
when you play an avi file from your hardrive the computer has to first load it into its buffer so that it can play it uninterupted
windows media player is very slow at doing this
if you recommned that people use the classic version of media player then it doesnt have any problems at all
for the technophobes this means that you need to right click on the icon and then "open with" media player classic
i havent watched it yet because I have been busy
i will have watched it by sunday
I'll let you know what I think when I have

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:59 am

Charlie wrote

I've been keepping the possibilty of a cremation ceremony in mind, especially with the amount of ocher being used, and the number of "axes" and choppers.

I've wondered if our lack of bones is due to the practice of creamation among these people. We seem to have a lot of Indian bones, but we can't date them, or do any study for that matter.