Early American Indians

[Gary Svindal]

I’ve been lurking here for a fortnight reading topics from many pages, and have went to bed with many headaches from excessive reading. I am impressed beyond words with the discussions involving Beagle, Minimalist, Charlie, John, Harriett and even Marduk, who enjoys splashing folks with cold reality but provides very relevant material. I particularly enjoyed the pre-Clovis America discussions and the Clovis/Solutrean Topic with Ken Asplaund.

Beagle on Fri Sep 29, 2006 said: “If we conservatively figure that man has been eating cooked food for one million years, or even half a million years, his facial features have been evolving. The brow ridges are not needed, and neither is all the previous dentition.”

Would you please elaborate some on the “previous dentition” changes attributed to variously evolving races of hominids? My particular interest involves reports of early American native skulls, found in both mounds and ground burials throughout the Ohio Valley areas and all the way to New York State, that have double rows of dentition. The skulls were described as very large, with corresponding skeleton bones of proportional size to the skull, prominent brow ridges and bodacious (double rowed) dentition. Skeleton sizes measured between 8-9’. When exposed to the weather for a few days, the skeletons were reported to turn black and begin to crumble. Some reportedly found on the Six Nations Reservation were said to have remains of red hair, and had smoking pipes of carved bone with a snake motif. What sort of human ancestor had double rows of teeth? Most references are from the early to mid 1800’s, with near zero archeological investigations. Some scientific sorts described them as a pre-Adena people, hence about 1,000 BC.

A few references gleaned from early Ohio County Histories, such as this one: Prehistoric Man and the Indians

At the end of the Colonial period, the number of Indian mounds in Ohio alone was estimated to exceed ten thousand. Ohio Valley Bones: Reality? or Imagination?

Chesterville, Ohio 1829: A near by mound was being used to furnish the material to build a hotel. As they dug into the mounds, the workers dug up a large human skeleton. The local physician examining the skeleton said that the skull could have easily fit over a normal man's head with no difficulty. Another peculiarity of the skeleton was the additional teeth it had compared to modern man.

Seneca Township, Noble County, 1872, in what is now called 'Bates' Mound three skeletons were found. All three skeletons unearthed were at the very least eight feet tall in height with bone structure proportional to their height. Another amazing discovery about these skeletons is that they all had double rows of teeth.

Ashtabula County, 1878. Mounds were excavated on land belonging to Peleg Sweet, a man of large features. In the first mound, they unearthed a skull and jaw, which were of such size that the skull would cover Sweet's head and the jaw could be easily slipped over his face. Excavating further, they discovered these mounds contained the graves estimated between two and three thousand. Many of the skeletons found were of gigantic proportions.

The early Delaware (Lenni Lenape) warriors were said to average around 7’, and even the Creek (Mushogean) warriors of the Southeast routinely exceeded 6’, so the early American natives were a hardy stock, but what of those extra-large natives found in the Northeast with extra dentition? Are they pre-Adena? The Adena were known to burn their dead, not bury them in mounds or cemeteries.

These battlefields must still exist, along with the Graveyard of the Giants near Niagara Falls, so could not be that difficult to examine by qualified scientific personnel using modern forensic equipment.

And this site: Giants and Ancient North American Warfare

Any opinions are appreciated!

[Minimalist]

Hey, Gary.


Where are these skulls and skeletons, now?

[marduk]

Deborah A. Bolnick’s 2005 dissertation, entitled The Genetic prehistory of Eastern North America: evidence from ancient and modern DNA,

Bolnick studied ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 55 individuals from six different mounds in the Pete Klunk Mound Group in Illinois
this is really where you will find the answer
extract

Bolnick identified individuals from all five of the mtDNA lineages, or haplogroups, documented for North America: 19 from haplogroup C, 9 from A, 5 from B, 5 from D, and 1 from X
Haplogroup frequencies “do not differ significantly between males and females, burial mounds, or members of different social rank
One test, however, did show that there was some haplogroup differentiation by social rank. High status individuals “did not freely interbreed with others” (p. 131). Haplogroups D and X tended to be associated with high status individuals and haplogroups B and C tended to be associated with lower status individuals.

now what this means is that the two mtdna groups which are pre bering straight break up namely c and d were originally living in the area
then when groups a and b arrived from the south they joined the tribes and were assimilated into them having no effect on leadership that was already in place along the D line
at a later point arrivals from group x also arrived and joined the amalgamation of tribes and being more advanced than either imediately integrated themselves into the leadership
there is another clue
the hopewell are quite unusual among north american indians because of their usage of Obsidian
this is a mineral only found around active volcanoes
during this period the only active volcanoes were found in south america and the old world
so whoever introduced that either came from the south or much more unlikely bought the technology with them when they left the old world for the new
this is very unlikely though as to continue to traditionally use such a technology would require a plentiful supply of it and this is not usually possible during a migration
so it looks as if when X turned up they were armed with something more than the bone pointed weapons of the tribes they assimilated

its like if you can imagine you and your family are living in an area and hunting with flintlocks and then one day a new group move into the area and demand to be put in charge because they have machine guns

Bolnick compared these results with the data obtained by Lisa Mills in her 2003 study of mtDNA from Ohio’s Hopewell Mound Group

they were identical results which suggests that both groups of hopewll indians were in contact with each other and were interbreeding

[Cognito]

Skeleton sizes measured between 8-9’. When exposed to the weather for a few days, the skeletons were reported to turn black and begin to crumble. Some reportedly found on the Six Nations Reservation were said to have remains of red hair, and had smoking pipes of carved bone with a snake motif.

Welcome Gary! In the Western United States the Pah-Ute tribe exterminated a group of individuals who were described as red haired giants by eventually trapping and burning them to death in Lovelock Cave, Nevada. Although the bones were recovered in 1911 no archaeological analysis has been done on the remains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah

I have seen a picture of one of the skulls in a local museum and it is huge compared to today's individuals. I think we'll have to send in Charlie Hatchett for a photo op. When I re-located those pictures, I'll post them here.

[Cognito]

the hopewell are quite unusual among north american indians because of their usage of Obsidian
this is a mineral only found around active volcanoes
during this period the only active volcanoes were found in south america and the old world
so whoever introduced that either came from the south or much more unlikely bought the technology with them when they left the old world for the new
this is very unlikely though as to continue to traditionally use such a technology would require a plentiful supply of it and this is not usually possible during a migration

Marduk, there were many active volcanos and substantial sources of obsidian in Western and Central America at that time. Further, mtDNA X has no significant expression in South America while 3% of North American natives carry that haplogroup. I like your analysis, but you should rule out South America in favor of the Old World (preferably Eurasia) by your own argument.

OK, now that I have contradicted you I am ready for the ensuing barrage and punishment!

[Forum Monk]

The mention of oversized skulls in North America is very interesting and reminded me of this article I came across a while back:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganthropus

The skulls cited in the article were found primarily in the western pacific if I'm not mistaken. I wonder if some of those Kon-Tiki like sea-farers might have gotten blown off course.

[marduk]

OK, now that I have contradicted you I am ready for the ensuing barrage and punishment!

oh ye of little faith

Haplogroup X is also one of the five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
South America among the Yanomami people (12%) in eight villages in Roraima in northwestern Brazil.

Unlike the four main Native American haplogroups (A, B, C, and D), X is not at all strongly associated with East Asia. The sole occurrence of X in Asia discovered so far is in Altaia in South Siberia (Derenko et al, 2001), and detailed examination (Reidla et al, 2003) has shown that the Altaian sequences are all almost identical, suggesting that they arrived in the area probably from the South Caucasus more recently than 5000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)
so they didn't get there by the bering land bridge

we're talking about a much later migration from the caucasus where this haplogroup originates
i.e. post 9500bce
up until that point as you know the caucasus and the altai region were pretty glaciated up and so migration in that direction was impossible
hence why i said they came from the south
because thats the easier route to the americas along the islands of the south pacific ridge
i thought you knew all this
you been counting too much money lately eh
that stuff affects your memory you know


i didnt know that there were active volcanoes in north america between 9000 and 5000bce in the route from south america to ohio
perhaps you want to look at that in a little more detail as Obsidian was also unknown technology in south america as well up until the point that group x show up
there must have been a hell of a lot of obsidian for people to have started using it in the caucasus
iirc its only found at the base of volcanoes
but I can't figure out why anyone would want to get near one really in a pre agricultural world
can you

[Cognito]

we're talking about a much later migration from the caucasus where this haplogroup originates
i.e. post 9500bce
up until that point as you know the caucasus and the altai region were pretty glaciated up and so migration in that direction was impossible
hence why i said they came from the south
because thats the easier route to the americas along the islands of the south pacific ridge
i thought you knew all this
you been counting too much money lately eh
that stuff affects your memory you know

I agree with both statements, that the obvious migration route is over water at a southern latitude as you indicated, and also that I have been counting too much money lately.

i didnt know that there were active volcanoes in north america between 9000 and 5000bce in the route from south america to ohio
perhaps you want to look at that in a little more detail as Obsidian was also unknown technology in south america as well up until the point that group x show up

Every time I look at the map I see Mexico and Central American sitting right in the middle of the path from South America to Ohio. That be volcano territory, son ... Holocene or not. Look in the database and you'll find plenty of eruptions. In other words, they had a continuous source of material up through Mexico. If you look hard enough, you will find references to the Hopwell Culture trading with Mexico ... that is actually symptomatic of something else taking place, eh?

there must have been a hell of a lot of obsidian for people to have started using it in the caucasus
iirc its only found at the base of volcanoes

True ...

but I can't figure out why anyone would want to get near one really in a pre agricultural world
can you

Now, you're baiting me so I won't give the answer in this forum! However, when a volcano is dormant one can gather obsidian like crazy, before the gods are angry again!

[marduk]

That be volcano territory, son

I'm cranky cos I didn't get my allowance this week Dad

[Charlie Hatchett]

OK, now that I have contradicted you I am ready for the ensuing barrage and punishment!

BTW, Gary, Cog is our resident "sick bastard".

Mmmmaaaahhhh!! You know I love you Cog!!

I have seen a picture of one of the skulls in a local museum and it is huge compared to today's individuals. I think we'll have to send in Charlie Hatchett for a photo op.

Is this what your talking about:

http://www.white-history.com/hwr6b.htm

[Beagle]

Would you please elaborate some on the “previous dentition” changes attributed to variously evolving races of hominids?

Hi Gary and welcome.

Wow, you sure have been reading some old stuff.
I was talking at that time about the reason early man had a somewhat different skull and face than us.

The dentition I mentioned was basically the back molars, or wisdom teeth. Today they mostly cause us problems and one day will disappear, unless we wind up having to eat raw food again.

The double row of teeth you mention seems like quite an aberation. I've never heard of it in an adult, but it's probably happened. I have seen an occassional child with it but that was because the "baby teeth" had not yet fallen out, scaring the hell out of parents.

You have some interesting links there. I have seen many stories like this but no good follow-up investigations.

Sorry if I can't be of more help.

[Digit]

http://paranormal.about.com/od/mysterio ... 060605.htm
Some more here if you don't mind plowing through the dross.

[marduk]

I'd be very wary of any websites whos address starts with paranormal.about.com

i loved it though
it wasn't too far off the mark but is very scant with its details
i loved the link at the bottom of the page

Skull of an alien hybrid?

new starchild or human mutant
what do you guys think ?

[Digit]

Till Von Daniken produces the interstellar ship I'll stick with human mutant.

[marduk]

its a foetal human skull
this is my point
many skulls look like they are alien or mutant
this is because many people who think that are not trained physicians