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[Forum Monk]

Charley - if you plan to make a serious attempt to show how it was possible to 'accidently' melt iron I have some advice. You will need 2800 degrees (2300 for pure iron). Most rocks and minerals will melt at these temperatures so you must carefully choose your methods because melting hearth or minerals will remove heat from your furnace.

The are two kinds of possible furnace. One is the oxygen starved furnace used in pottery making. It will produce very high temperatures, enough to melt some common metals, but may not be enough to melt copper unless it is well designed. You will need to achieve about 400 degrees more than that to melt iron.

The second type is a sort of blast furnace with air ducts in the hearth (actually called tuyeres) in which air is forced into the fire by a bellows or similar mechanisim. This will produce very high temperatures and may be your best chance of success. If you do succeed be careful because molten metal coming in contact with water can explode, because the water instantly flashes to steam. I wonder how many ancient 'iron workers' learned these lessons the hard way.

I further suggest you read up. For example begin here and follow some of the links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery

Probably the only thing that will melt that night will be the frost on your bottles of Corona (or Lone Star). Good luck.

[Digit]

Hi Monk! Makes it even more puzzling as to how we found out how to do it doesn't it?

[Forum Monk]

Hi Monk! Makes it even more puzzling as to how we found out how to do it doesn't it?

Its true to some degree. Certainly by the iron age, people were able to build some extreme furnaces. I think iron smelting knowledge probably came about as sophisticated copper furnaces were developed. That's not to say, there were not 'accidental' discoveries or observations. Even nature can produces extreme fires and temperatures which can melt certain ores. But when we speak of smelting, we are implying an industry which had results that could be reproduced on a consistent basis.

Once they began to understand the process and see value in iron, it would not have taken too long to refine the process and turn it into an enterprise.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Its true to some degree. Certainly by the iron age, people were able to build some extreme furnaces. I think iron smelting knowledge probably came about as sophisticated copper furnaces were developed. That's not to say, there were not 'accidental' discoveries or observations. Even nature can produces extreme fires and temperatures which can melt certain ores. But when we speak of smelting, we are implying an industry which had results that could be reproduced on a consistent basis.

Once they began to understand the process and see value in iron, it would not have taken too long to refine the process and turn it into an enterprise.

With the in situ lead find, I wonder if that's how it started here locally?

[Charlie Hatchett]

Probably the only thing that will melt that night will be the frost on your bottles of Corona (or Lone Star). Good luck

All in all, I would count that as a successful night.

[Minimalist]

That's no good, Monk. You can't try to recreate an "accidental" discovery by working towards known conditions.

Let's face it, with most of the rocks on this planet if you heat them you get hot rocks and nothing more.

Somehow, some guy, somewhere noted that something happened when a certain type of rock was heated. But what is the likelihood that temperatures of over 2,000 degrees were attained in a simple camp fire?

[Digit]

Quite Min, and the suggestion that Iron smelting was as a result of Copper smelting only moves your point back one pace back in history to ask how did Copper smelting first occur.

[Minimalist]

And who got the bright idea to mix copper and tin?

They do not even seem to be found in the same areas.

[marduk]

And who got the bright idea to mix copper and tin

the sumerians in 3600bce did
I thought everyone knew that

[Forum Monk]

If I were a bettin' man I would wager, there's no chance of obtaining the necessary temperatures with a simple campfire. Maybe if you burn down an acre or so of dense, dry timber, you'll discover the intense heat you need (but i think you guys would fall harmlessly asleep before getting drunk enough to try that demonstration. )
I think it amazing to think anyone could have been intentionally melting iron in North America prior to the common era. Then when I look at the name of this thread, my mind boggles.

[marduk]

when I look at the name of this thread, my mind boggles

I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback

[Forum Monk]

I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback

Then we can start a new book review thread and talk about all of this again.

[Digit]

Sorry Monk, you obviously don't fit in, the boggled mind is perfectly acceptable, but to expect us to be logical and stick to one subject? Tch! Tch!

[clubs_stink]

Charlie, I found this curious and well-referenced paper about dating methods

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/ancient.htm#sec-1

I have no idea if it will be of and use, but within they are clearing describing "the club" and the reasons behind some of the stubbornness.

I have no idea about any of the veracity, I've not looked at the primary sources (the references) but it was certainly interesting to read. I also don't have much of an idea of how some of this might apply to your dilemma, however the author certainly delves into the concept of historical artifacts that many archeologists use to "place" artifacts that show up in out of place...places.



Display pos

[Minimalist]

He reached this conclusion after comparing the early histories of the Hebrews and the Egyptians. In the Old Testament (OT), the ancient Hebrews recorded such major events as their Descent into Egypt, the Sojourn, Oppression, and Exodus from Egypt, and later campaigns against them by the Egyptian rulers Shishak and Zerah. However, no clear reference to any of these events can be found in Egyptian history.

A bad way to start. The reason there is no clear reference to these events in Egyptian history is that they did not happen in Egyptian history...only in the book of fairy tales that the Judeans whipped up centuries later to give themselves a history.

(Lots of other cultures did the same thing....they were not unique in that, either.)