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[marduk]

Come on...whatcha got in mind?

Whaling in the ancient world utilised tridents
they didn't have barbs on them
the usual practice was to jump onto the whales back and stab it as many times as you could before you fell off
this is because of the shortness of the teeth of the trident wouldn't stand any chance of killing the whale outright
but it would distress the whale a great deal
a distressed whale has two options
drown
or beach itself
so using a trident on a whale is a good way of getting it to deliver itself to the beach of your choice no towing required
if you did this to the alpha male or female the rest of the pod would also beach themselves even though they weren't injured
the fijian islanders used this method of hunting so succesfully that it was traditional to have body armour made from sperm whale ivory
as were necklaces being both made form the teeth

even in the places where whaling is allowed trident whaling isn't because it is regarded as inhumane


Charlie
your specimen is a thoracic vertebra
But I don't know what animal
most likely reptile or lizard
most probably crocodile

[stan]

I have a suggestion for the bone, Charlie.
Or at least a comparison...a large turtle.
The upper carapace is an extension of the spinal column (like ribs) and the spinal cord runs along the upper edge of the shell.
However, it looks too flat for a turtle....??

[Digit]

Please define 'whale' and 'ancient' Marduk. If by 'whale' you mean something small, the weight of somebody on its back would probably push it under. Jumping onto the back of a Right whale, for example, is a feat I should certainly like to witness, from a distance!
I very much doubt that you could do a Sperm, Blue, or Right whale any harm at all with any sort of trident that could be handled from an open boat
There are easier ways of commiting suicide!
Stabbing a whale with a barbless trident seems a little pointless as the animal would simply dive.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Charlie
your specimen is a thoracic vertebra
But I don't know what animal
most likely reptile or lizard
most probably crocodile

Thanks Mar.

That will give me a starting place to begin researching.

I have a suggestion for the bone, Charlie.
Or at least a comparison...a large turtle.
The upper carapace is an extension of the spinal column (like ribs) and the spinal cord runs along the upper edge of the shell.
However, it looks too flat for a turtle....??

Thanks Stan. I'll research your suggestion further. Clovis peeps are known to have enjoyed dining on turtles quite a bit. Sounds disgusting to me...but to each his own. Just look at some of the things Asians eat.

[stan]

[Forum Monk]

You have to put the whaling by trident idea into a context of time. It seems intuitive to me that tridents would be pretty rare prior to the bronze age since you would have to carve your trident from wood or bone. Bone hooks have been found; no tridents. Depictions of tridents on ancient artifacts are dated to inside early to middle bronze.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

According to the preliminary investigations conducted by Charley and his associates, his items are being pulled out of strata dated pre-clovis, hence "preclovis iron smelting in texas". Now to be a bit of devils advocate. If the site is pre-clovis we are talking probably older than 11 thousand years before present. Hand-axes? OK. Metal objects? then why a hand axe? If I can smelt iron I don't need a knapped out hand axe anymore; I have new technology. And I have it 8000 years before those stupid europeans will figure out how to melt and alloy bronze. This is so unorthodox it hurts. But we have several of these kinds of digs going on in North America.

What do you other experts, colleagues and readers think about all of this?



(oh, and the crack about stupid europeans, is just to make a point - please don't email me - I don't think you're stupid. )

[Digit]

Which is why I asked Marduk to define 'ancient' Monk. The blubber on large whales can be very thick, and punching holes in that is unlikely to be fatal in the short term. The hide of whales can also be very tough, it has been used as a sub for leather, and as I pointed out the tine support on a trident would make it very difficult to produce a fatal wound. Hence the use of the lance which would penetrate the hide, blubber, and rib cage to reach the lungs and heart.

[marduk]

Please define 'whale' and 'ancient' Marduk

I already did
didn't you see the sperm whale teeth necklace
and Roy
Sperm whale skin is not tough you can rub it off with your hand
this is a very well known fact
i suggest you actually google some info on this rather than using your imagination
for instance
whale blubber isn't found on a whales back
sperm whales breath through their blow holes
if you damage that they won't dive

[Forum Monk]

Charlie - remember this guy? Does it match the end of your "trident"?

[Digit]

Imagination Marduk! Where did I say that Sperm whale skin was tough, where did I say that blubber was on the back?
If any lunatic was brave enough to clamber onto the back of a large whale the blow would indeed be the obvious target. That in fact is what Killer whales will do.
Any fool leaping from a moving boat in an attempt to land on the back of a whale has a damn good chance of freezing to death unless he gets out of the water, in the high latitudes.
So show me some evidense that that method was used, out side of your imagination that is.

[Forum Monk]

Hey, if the Fremen could ride sand worms on Arrakis, I have no doubt, some idiot could jump on the back of a whale and poke a trident into his blowhole!

[Digit]

Yep Monk, and somewhere there's a grave stone dedicated to him!

[Beagle]

Digit, from what I've seen of this conversation, you're the only one who woke up this morning.

[Cognito]

A piece of the "bird effigy" is enroute to Steve Kissin, a metallurgist/ geologist from Lakehead University, in Ontario ( http://geology.lakeheadu.ca/wp/?pg=31 ). He's performed SEM analyses on the metal found in the furnace, when first discovered, as well as analyses of the furnace wall. We'll see if we can get some more clues as to it's origin.

Yes, Charlie ... give him the bird! How on earth do you intend to date that sucker?

[marduk]

Imagination Marduk! Where did I say that Sperm whale skin was tough, .

we were talking about fiji islanders hunting sperm whales and you said

The hide of whales can also be very tough,

where did I say that blubber was on the back?

we were talking about someone standing on its back and sticking a trident in it and you said

The blubber on large whales can be very thick, and punching holes in that is unlikely to be fatal in the short term.

Go back to sleep Roy

Digit, from what I've seen of this conversation, you're the only one who woke up this morning

well as usual you haven't got a clue what you're talking about