The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.
There is supposed to be an ancient Hittite text which refers to the Ahhiyawa, a nation to the west of Turkey. Speculation is that Achaeans refers to them, as well.
Yes, and I believe that text also refers to troubles with them.
Geneticists have added an edge to a 2,500-year-old debate over the origin of the Etruscans, a people whose brilliant and mysterious civilization dominated northwestern Italy for centuries until the rise of the Roman republic in 510 B.C. Several new findings support a view held by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus — but unpopular among archaeologists — that the Etruscans originally migrated to Italy from the Near East.
From Herodotus to modern geneticists, the story of Homers' Aeneid seems to have validity. In the Aeneid, the survivors of the sack of Troy, fled and eventually made their way to Italy, and those descendants, including Romulus and Remus, founded the city of Rome.
Beagle, wasn't this story out awhile back? I remember a short discussion about a culture that Herodotus had claimed from a region and recent discoveeries have exonorated his claims.
The story that I think you may be referring to was about Etruscan cattle DNA. That study showed that cattle from the area of northern Italy came from the near east and that there was no indication of similar lineages between Italy and Anatolia.
The story by Herodotus has been debated for a long time. This story, which came out Monday, is new. My point, as in the thread topic, is that Homer said it first.
The image of a cohesive unit of foreigners, even a small group, entering an area from outside, replacing the native ruling class with themselves, and taking over is not so hard to fathom. Nor, are historical precedents hard to find.
The Hyksos did it in Egypt. The Normans did it in England. The Spanish did it in the Americas. Hell...the British even did it in India. So there is nothing inherently unfeasible about a group of Iron Age adventurers from anywhere ending up in Italy and amputating the head of whatever culture they found and replacing it with their own.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Yes, but wouldn't you think the survivors of Troy would flee to the east, or south, not to the west toward the lands of their conquerers? They would have to circumnavigate Greece to get to Italy.
But then maybe they fled to the south by sea, and then headed north from Africa...
According to Homer, they first went to Carthage. It was then that the Carthaginian queen, Dido, had a dream that the descendents of these people would one day destroy Carthage, so she threw them out and cursed them.
Obviously some literary license by Virgil.
Last edited by Beagle on Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What's the dating for all of this. According to the traditional dating which I already posted earlier in this thread, Dido reestablished Carthage around 884bce. 300 years after the Trojan War.
ps. if Im not mistaken, Romulus and Remus came from a separate ethnic group entirely, from the etruscans. I will go back through my old files and verify this.
Barracuda wrote:Yes, but wouldn't you think the survivors of Troy would flee to the east, or south, not to the west toward the lands of their conquerers? They would have to circumnavigate Greece to get to Italy.
But then maybe they fled to the south by sea, and then headed north from Africa...
Herodotus doesn't say Troy, he says Lydia which was southeast of Troy centered around the City of Sardis.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Etruscan settlements were frequently built on a hill, the steeper the better, and surrounded by thick walls. When Romulus and Remus founded Rome, they did so on the Palatine Hill according to Etruscan ritual; that is, they began with a pomoerium or sacred ditch. Then they proceeded to the walls. Romulus was required to kill Remus when the latter jumped over the wall, breaking its magic spell (see also under Pons Sublicius).
I'm still leaning towards Troy being destroyed by the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC...much like everywhere else in the eastern med. Of course, if there was a primarily Greek heritage to the Sea People then all that Homer did was convert a bunch of burping, farting barbarians into heroic warriors who were guided by the gods.
Homer would merely be like every other PR hack in history!
Min, Brian Fagan in The Long Summer: How Climate Changed Civilization, 2004, New York, NY. Basic Books (pages 177-188), appears to have an excellent argument that several years of drought in Mycenae, Western Anatolia and other nearby areas set people on the move. The "Sea Peoples" were not only marine-based but had a land contingent also. He states that Mycenae would not be able to feed its population with back to back drought years while the Hittite empire was desperately importing grain from Syria and Egypt at that time. Mernepta states that he sent grain "to keep alive the land of Hatti".
An interesting theory. Egypt and the Hittites had maintained the peace since Kadesh with clearly defined spheres of influence. I recall in Finkelstein's, The Bible Unearthed, he touched on the Sea Peoples and it was felt that a breakdown of the very complex and interrelated trading patterns of the Late Bronze Age had led to social catastrophe. Famine could easily fit as a cause....particularly if it were widespread. Egypt did withstand the Sea Peoples, more or less. They were pretty much alone in that success.
In Aegean Apocalypse it was suggested that the long period of peace which resulted from the Treaty of Kadesh had impoverished many of the mercenary units who were no longer employed by previously warring states which led them to turn to banditry on an increasing scale.
Sure as hell that something happened.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Beagle wrote:Here's Wiki's take on it. Lots of info here.
I got side tracked today and did not follow up my previous statement that the Etruscans and the Latines (from which came Romulus and Remus) where separate cultures having arrived in Italy at different times. In fact, if I recall correctly, Aeneas, who allegedly fled Troy, stopped at Carthage, and went to Italy, was later killed in a battle with the Etruscans.
There seems to be some confusion (I know I am confused, in any case).
Carthage was not founded until the late 9th century. Sometime after the alleged fall of Troy.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Archaeologists have discovered the place where Aeneas is believed to have first set foot in Italy. Peter Popham reports
Archaeologists at the University of Lecce have discovered that the modern town, with its 15th-century walls, sits on the ruins of the port that was the first landfall in Italy made by the semi-mythical wanderer of the ancient world, Aeneas. According to Virgil's epic, he fled Troy as the Greeks destroyed it and made his laborious way westwards finally to found a "new Troy", the imperial city of Rome.
This article is not about the Iliad, nor was it written by Homer, but Aeneas is closely associated with the story.
