4,568 million years

[Ishtar]

Saturnalia Rules OK!

[Digit]

And a happy Eid to all brothers as well. (I'm not going to be left out.)

[kbs2244]

For better or for worse, Abe Lincoln lead the winning side on a real bloody war that, in effect, said "Once you are in, you can't get out."
In the American South they call it the “War of Succession."
And they lost.

[Minimalist]

The Lakota are not "in" because they ever were "IN" but because of a treaty. Treaties can be broken.

[john]

Saturnalia Rules OK!

You are singing to the terpsichorian choir, here.

john

[kbs2244]

Treaties can be broken, but most often with consequences.
Admission the “Union” could be considered a treaty.
It is a signed agreement between to governmental organizations.
Secession afterwards almost always fails.
It is the ultimate street gang or Costra Nostra.
After the fact, you can argue all you want about weather the signers were legitimate or not.
But once they have a piece of paper, the guys with the most lawyers, guns, and money always win.
And that is rarely the break away group.

[Minimalist]

Admission the “Union” could be considered a treaty.

They were not a state to be admitted to anything. They were an independent nation which signed a treaty with the US government.

I agree there may be consequences but, if you've ever seen an Indian reservation, you might wonder if they were better off without our "help."

[kbs2244]

I have been on reservations. And I have worked with “Native Americans.” Some of whom were technically above me.
I have also been in the urban ghetto. And I have worked with black men. Some of whom were a level above me.
A lazy, drunk, doper, living a welfare supported existence has no one to blame for his life style but himself. He can get out of it if he wants to.
The treaties their forefathers signed opened up opportunities to them that neither side realized or anticipated at the time. All you have to do is adapt to the times.
It is the 21st century, not the 13th. And it never will be the 13th again.
Even the Amish and Mennonites have figured that out.
I have no sympathy for lazy people.

[Rokcet Scientist]

In the American South they call it the “War of Succession.

Oh?
I was always led to believe it was the "War of Seccession"?

[john]

I have been on reservations. And I have worked with “Native Americans.” Some of whom were technically above me.
I have also been in the urban ghetto. And I have worked with black men. Some of whom were a level above me.
A lazy, drunk, doper, living a welfare supported existence has no one to blame for his life style but himself. He can get out of it if he wants to.
The treaties their forefathers signed opened up opportunities to them that neither side realized or anticipated at the time. All you have to do is adapt to the times.
It is the 21st century, not the 13th. And it never will be the 13th again.
Even the Amish and Mennonites have figured that out.
I have no sympathy for lazy people.

kbs2244 -

"I have no sympathy for lazy people".

As the proto-industrial, seafairing trading nations of Europe competed with each other to conquer the globe, the common plaint was "the natives are lazy", i.e. useless.

Joseph Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness" might give you some insight as to the African side.

As for the North and South American peoples, just precisely how do you equate the massive destruction of habitat, the forced relocation of entire peoples, wanton and wholesale killing of the same peoples, the introduction of disease (smallpox, anyone?), and the wholesale imposition of a European population, technology, and politics on an entire continent into one descriptor of the original inhabitants as "lazy".

Let alone the systematic European political division of North and South America along existing (political) lines combined with competitive expeditionary/piratical forces fueled by pure greed.

I would suggest that you step outside your front door, take a deep breath, and relearn the cultural/historical alphabet.

john

ps

The Sand Creek Massacre
Southern Cheyenne
November 29, 1864


Colorado Territory during the 1850's and 1860's was a place of phenomenal growth spurred by gold and silver rushes. Miners by the tens of thousands had elbowed their way into mineral fields, dislocating and angering the Cheyennes and Arapahos. The Pike's Peak Gold Rush in 1858 brought the the tension to a boiling point. Tribesmen attacked wagon trains, mining camps, and stagecoach lines during the Civil War, when the military garrisons out west were reduced by the war. One white family died within 20 miles of Denver. This outbreak of violence is sometimes referred to as the Cheyenne-Arapaho War or the Colorado War of 1864-65.
Governor John Evans of Colorado Territory sought to open up the Cheyenne and Arapaho hunting grounds to white development. The tribes, however, refused to sell their lands and settle on reservations. Evens decided to call out volunteer militiamen under Colonel John Chivington to quell the mounting violence.
Evans used isolated incidents of violence as a pretext to order troops into the field under the ambitious, Indian-hating territory military commander Colonel Chivington. Though John Chivington had once belonged to the clergy, his compassion for his fellow man didn't extend to the Indians.

Sand Creek Massacre

In the spring of 1864, while the Civil War raged in the east, Chivington launched a campaign of violence against the Cheyenne and their allies, his troops attacking any and all Indians and razing their villages. The Cheyennes, joined by neighboring Arapahos, Sioux, Comanches, and Kiowas in both Colorado and Kansas, went on the defensive warpath.
Evans and Chivington reinforced their militia, raising the Third Colorado Calvary of short-term volunteers who referred to themselves as "Hundred Dazers". After a summer of scattered small raids and clashes, white and Indian representatives met at Camp Weld outside of Denver on September 28. No treaties were signed, but the Indians believed that by reporting and camping near army posts, they would be declaring peace and accepting sanctuary.
Black Kettle was a peace-seeking chief of a band of some 600 Southern Cheyennes and Arapahos that followed the buffalo along the Arkansas River of Colorado and Kansas. They reported to Fort Lyon and then camped on Sand Creek about 40 miles north.
Shortly afterward, Chivington led a force of about 700 men into Fort Lyon, and gave the garrison notice of his plans for an attack on the Indian encampment. Although he was informed that Black Kettle has already surrendered, Chivington pressed on with what he considered the perfect opportunity to further the cause for Indian extinction. On the morning of November 29, he led his troops, many of them drinking heavily, to Sand Creek and positioned them, along with their four howitzers, around the Indian village.
Black Kettle ever trusting raised both an American and a white flag of peace over his tepee. In response, Chivington raised his arm for the attack. Chivington wanted a victory, not prisoners, and so men, women and children were hunted down and shot.
With cannons and rifles pounding them, the Indians scattered in panic. Then the crazed soldiers charged and killed anything that moved. A few warriors managed to fight back to allow some of the tribe to escape across the stream, including Black Kettle.
The colonel was as thourough as he was heartless. An interpreter living in the village testified, "THEY WERE SCALPED, THEIR BRAINS KNOCKED OUT; THE MEN USED THEIR KNIVES, RIPPED OPEN WOMEN, CLUBBED LITTLE CHILDREN, KNOCKED THEM IN THE HEAD WITH THEIR RIFLE BUTTS, BEAT THEIR BRAINS OUT, MUTILATED THEIR BODIES IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD." By the end of the one-sided battle as many as 200 Indians, more than half women and children, had been killed and mutilated.
While the Sand Creek Massacre outraged easterners, it seemed to please many people in Colorado Territory. Chivington later appeared on a Denver stage where he regaled delighted audiences with his war stories and displayed 100 Indian scalps, including the pubic hairs of women.
Chivington was later denounced in a congressional investigation and forced to resign. When asked at the military inquiry why children had been killed, one of the soldiers quoted Chivington as saying, "NITS MAKE LICE." Yet the after-the-fact reprimand of the colonel meant nothing to the Indians.
As word of the massacre spread among them via refugees, Indians of the southern and northern plains stiffened in their resolve to resist white encroachment. An avenging wildfire swept the land and peace returned only after a quarter of a century.





Back