Syro-Palestinian Archaeology

[popelane24]

Hey guys, just wanted to say thank you. I am really getting into the "other side" of the story, after studying the bible for six years.... Minimalist, Ishtar, everyone has put up some good arguments! Not that I'm exactly a scholar - I dropped out in grade ten - but yeah, this is some interesting stuff..... I just read this whole thread. Took a while, but it was well worth it!

I myself believe that there is absolute truth - and these types of discussions get us closer to it.

Again, thanks.

-Lane

[Ishtar]

Hey guys, just wanted to say thank you. I am really getting into the "other side" of the story, after studying the bible for six years.... Minimalist, Ishtar, everyone has put up some good arguments! Not that I'm exactly a scholar - I dropped out in grade ten - but yeah, this is some interesting stuff..... I just read this whole thread. Took a while, but it was well worth it!

I myself believe that there is absolute truth - and these types of discussions get us closer to it.

Again, thanks.

-Lane

Popelane - It's not interesting, at school, because they're telling you lies they only half believe themselves.

The truth is FASCINATING, as you are discovering.


Well done for having the initiative to come on here to ask your questions, and thanks for the feedback!

Also suggest you get some grounding in mythology. That will help you to know what something is when you dig it out of the ground.

[Minimalist]

Popelane - It's not interesting, at school, because they're telling you lies they only half believe themselves.

The truth is FASCINATING, as you are discovering.

Dead on, Ish.

Our schools seem to operate under the Jack Nicholson philosophy.

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

[Ishtar]

Our schools seem to operate under the Jack Nicholson philosophy.

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

[kbs2244]

Min,
You impress me with your knowledge of some of the more obscure scriptures.
But I thought you were of the opinion these were fictional stories, written long after the fact, (if, in fact, there was any “fact.“)
That would put those scriptures into the same class as the other boastful war claims of the period.

[Cognito]

It's not interesting, at school, because they're telling you lies they only half believe themselves.

Lane, Ish is correct. Very few schools teach students how to think or solve problems on their own. Instead, students are taught to memorize facts represented by the status quo of knowledge and to regurgitate those facts onto paper (i.e. a test). Unfortunately, that knowledge-base changes constantly -- what you learn today may not be true tomorrow. As such, history and archaeology is really somebody's (or a group of somebody's) opinion of what occurred. Sometimes, opinions are formed by group consensus and become national facts, giving rise to the truism that "History is written by the victors."

If you want a jump-start on the road to thinking for yourself pick up a copy of Everything You've Been Taught Is Wrong, by James W. Loewen. It will open your eyes on the road to sorting out fact from fiction. Always -- look behind the motivations of those who create modern-day myths, and always -- follow the money trail!

If reading isn't your thing, listen to Pink Floyd:

We dont need no education.
We dont need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher, leave those kids alone.
Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!
All in all its just another brick in the wall.
All in all youre just another brick in the wall.

[Minimalist]

Min,
You impress me with your knowledge of some of the more obscure scriptures.
But I thought you were of the opinion these were fictional stories, written long after the fact, (if, in fact, there was any “fact.“)
That would put those scriptures into the same class as the other boastful war claims of the period.

I'd say that right now I lean towards the ideas of Finkelstein and his centrist buddies. He finds the date of 630-640 BC for the formalization of the Deuteronomistic history as significant because a number of factor had come together by that time.

1- Judah had attained full statehood and had a modern (for the time) economy which had been fully integrated into the trade network of the Assyrian empire. Judah prospered under Hezekiah and Manessah. Hezekiah got a little too big for his britches and rebelled and got smacked down hard. However, Manessah restored Judah to its prosperity within the Assyrian empire. Apparently, he had to kiss a lot of Assyrian asses to do this and the priests never forgave him.

2- Literacy became widespread enough, as a result of the great economic growth under Hezekiah and Manessah. If you write something - you need someone capable of reading it.

3- Assyria suffering from internal revolts in the east was forced to withdraw from the western portions of its empire. This allowed Judah and Egypt to get ideas of expansion.

4- Archaeology and (Egyptian) history show no sign of significant earlier conflict between Egypt and Judah. Sheshonq's raid in the 10th century seemed to have been aimed at the northern kingdom. Thus the stories were pieced together out of folklore or simple embellishment of minor events AND a fair amount was simply transferred from "Israel" which arose as a kingdom a good 150 years prior to Judah. For an example of this consider the way in which Roman historians wove tales of the Etruscans into the early 'history' of Rome. It doesn't take too much imagination to think of the pastoral Judahites sitting there in awe (and perhaps a bit jealous) of their Israelite neighbors who were far richer and more powerful. When the stories were edited, Judah was placed at the center of the tale.

5- The story which was thus concocted was designed to show the Judahites that once before, with the help of god, they had overcame a mighty pharaoh and won the land on which they sat. The scheme came to naught when the pharoah summoned King Josiah, whom they had put all their hopes in, to a meeting at Megiddo and, not liking what he heard apparently, had him killed. Finkelstein regards the 'battle' mentioned in the much later Book of Chronicles as a face saving device. The Egyptians do not seem to know anything about such a battle. This was a murder.

Things quickly unraveled for the Judahites, anyway. They were ill-equipped to play on the stage they were trying to play on. Assyria fell to the Babylonians who promptly whipped the Egyptians and then turned on Jerusalem.

Where the "Minimalist" school comes in, and where they seem to have a great deal of evidence to support their position, is that while the Judahites (they were not known as "Jews" until the Persian period) were in Babylon they were exposed to Sumerian legend through their Assyrian and Babylonian contacts. In most cases throughout history, when a nation is overthrown it's gods go bye-bye, too. What we now know as Judaism was re-fashioned during the Exile by the incorporation of ancient Sumerian tales (like Gilgamesh) and a re-working them into something which could be sold to the population of Judah which remained behind. The Babylonians did not exile the whole populace, they only took the intellectuals, the nobles, the warriors, etc. The commoners were of more use farming the land.

Where the Minimalists go wrong is that they are too doctrinaire. There is no reason to suppose that the whole story was written in toto after the Exile. It isn't necessary. The returning exiles did, however, craft the story into something which would put THEM at the top of the heap upon their return. That, after all, is really what religion is all about.

[kbs2244]

Min: Your argument falls apart at point 5.
None of the battles you mention as support for your Genocide claim were against the Egyptians. They were against the local inhabitants living in the land that was “promised” to what you term Judahites.
I admit I find the ethnic cleansing concept troubling. And I find the numbers pretty high.
But inflated body counts did not fall out of favor until after Viet Nam.
And the local climate may have been different enough then to support those kinds population densities.

[Minimalist]

"God" defeated the pharaoh for them and they carried his "Ark" at the front of their army in the ensuing battles/murders.

Curiously, "god" also told them to avoid the Philistines because even though he destroyed the Egyptians for them I guess the Philistines were too tough? Odd, since the Philistines were not even there at the time.

Many people will say something akin to "why would anyone concoct a history for themselves in which they were slaves?" The answer is stunningly simple. At the time the bible was written slaves were the lowest of the low. The implication is clear. The priests were saying "if you do what "God" tells you ( meaning, of course, if you do what WE tell you) then anything is possible.

In the event, it was not possible and they were overwhelmed, god or no god.

[Minimalist]

All ancient statistics must be looked at with intense skepticism, kb. That is not only true of the bible.

Herodotus claimed that Xerxes brought two million soldiers to Greece. If true, the rear of the column would have starved to death marching through lands devastated by the front of the column!

Caesar claimed the Gauls raised a relief force of a quarter million to raise the siege of Alesia.

Two examples among many.

[Beagle]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

prominent Israeli archeologist said Monday that she has revised her reading of an inscription on an ancient seal uncovered in an archeological excavation in Jerusalem's City of David after various scholars around the world critiqued her original interpretation of the name on the seal.


Photo: Edwin Trebels courtesy of Dr. Eilat Mazar
The 2,500 year-old black stone seal was found last month amid stratified layers of debris in the excavation under way just outside the Old City walls near the Dung Gate, said archeologist Dr. Eilat Mazar, who is leading the dig.

Mazar had originally read the name on the seal as "Temech," and suggested that it belonged to the family of that name mentioned in the Book of Nehemiah.

But after the find was first reported in The Jerusalem Post, various epigraphers around the world said Mazar had erred by reading the inscription on the seal straight on (from right to left) rather than backwards (from left to right), as a result of the fact that a seal creates a mirror image when used to inscribe a piece of clay.

The critics, including the European scholar Peter van der Veen, as well as the epigrapher Ryan Byrne, co-director of the Tel Dan excavations, suggested in Internet blogs that the correct reading of the seal is actually "Shlomit," also a biblical name.

Mazar said Monday that she accepted the reading of "Shlomit" on the ancient seal, and added that she appreciated the scholarly research on the issue.

"We are involved in research, not in proving our own opinions," Mazar said.

She noted that the name Shlomit was known in the period from which the seal dated, and that other contemporary seals had been found that bore names of women who held official status in the administration.

It was not clear whether the name on the seal had any connection to the daughter of Zerubbabel, mentioned in 1 Chronicles 3:19, since the name was apparently common in the period.

The grandson of Judean King Jehoachin, Zerubbabel, led the first band of Jews who returned from the Babylonian captivity, and laid the foundation of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

"What we can say for sure is that this woman was an important woman in the society," Mazar said.

The seal, which portrays a common and popular cultic scene, was bought in Babylon and dates to 538-445 BCE, Mazar said.

In contrast, Byrne suggested that a date in the late seventh or early sixth century was more probable, noting that scene was typical of the Iron Age Levant and that there was no reason to surmise the seal had been made in Babylon.

The 2.1 X 1.8 cm elliptical seal is engraved with two bearded priests standing on either side of an incense alter with their hands raised in a position of worship.

A crescent moon, the symbol of the chief Babylonian god Sin, appears on the top of the altar, Mazar said.

The fact that this cultic scene relates to a Babylonian god seemed not to have disturbed the Jews that used the seal, she added.

Mazar gained international prominence for her recent excavation that may have uncovered the biblical palace of King David.

The three-year-old east Jerusalem dig is being sponsored by the Shalem Center, a Jerusalem research institute, where Mazar serves as a senior fellow, and the City of David Foundation, which promotes Jewish settlement throughout east Jerusalem.

Now they've got it right, I guess.

[Minimalist]

The fact that this cultic scene relates to a Babylonian god seemed not to have disturbed the Jews that used the seal, she added.

Makes one wonder how fiercely monotheistic they were, then!

[zale]

Many people will say something akin to "why would anyone concoct a history for themselves in which they were slaves?"

Also, I think in those times for a whole nation to be enslaved was perfectly normal, so it was not a big shame in general like today, just a temporary setback. Almost a bit like the Poles saying " we were occupied by the Germans, but freed ourselves of them".

[Ishtar]

Yes, but the story is about them overcoming their slavery, thus it is an heroic epic tale.

Every heroic tale has to start from having something to overcome - be it a dragon or conquering armies - otherwise, there is no journey to make, and so no story.

It would go something like:

"Once upon a time there this was great guy, Hercules. He was immensely strong and powerful. We know this because we could see his enormous muscles. However, he never got the chance to prove it because nothing ever happened. The End."

[Minimalist]

I think I saw that movie, Ish. It starred Steve Reeves.