Syro-Palestinian Archaeology

neilmarr · Post by **neilmarr** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:10 am

Great minds thinking alike, Min, writer Israel Knohl fingers the same candidtate here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/850657.html

(Now to run through this thread from start to finish to try to find the previous discussion -- having already drawn a blank working on it backwards).

Cheers. Neil

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:21 am

Good luck Neil.

If you're not back in a few days, we'll send out a search party!

Min

I've got a potential Simon candidate - Simon Magus who was a 1st century AD Samaritan disciple of John the Baptist, a Christian Gnostic, who got a bit of a following going. More later ....

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:27 am

Can't see any association with Herod the Great or the first century BC on him, Ish.

There's another problem with the Josephus passage but I've got to run out for a medical test so I'll have to post it later.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:52 am

Hope it's nothing too serious.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:19 am

I guess this means Mel Gibson will be making a sequel "The Passion of Simon"

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:00 am

Ishtar wrote:Hope it's nothing too serious.

Nah....fucking doctors and their tests.

Anyway, after reading the Josephus passage last night I went to post it on another board (CVAtheists.com) but had another thought which went like this:

Now, note that Josephus ( who was a pharisee, L/H....never a christian!) also mentions Rufus as well as Gratus. This tale has to be set around 4 BC because Herod has just died and the country is in chaos. The Romans under Varus have yet to act. Somehow, Josephus comes up with two names, both of whom were subsequently praefects (an office restricted to the Equestrian Order.) Is it possible that both Rufus and Gratus were junior officers, hanging around, and that they later became the praefects? It's possible but I wouldn't bet the rent on it.
More likely Josephus took names which were familiar to his audience (which was Greco-Roman...he wasn't writing for the Jews) and stuck them in the blanks.

Nonetheless, it is what he wrote. I'm not sure where Knohl gets off saying that Herod's commanders did the deed. That's not in Josephus as far as I can see.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:03 am

seeker wrote:I guess this means Mel Gibson will be making a sequel "The Passion of Simon"

But will he blame the Jews for that, too?

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:36 pm

Follow up to yesterday....Bibilical Archaeology Review published this story earlier this year.

http://bib-arch.org/archive.asp?PubID=B ... extraID=14

rich · Post by **rich** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:04 pm

I would really like to see them do an analysis on the ink to find out what it's made of and the age of it.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:42 pm

Here one can find the word for word translation. of the so-called resurrection stone.

The theology of the messiah, his peaceful mission, his suffering, death, resurrection, so on and so on, was laid out in prophetical writings and well understood by the Rabbis for hundreds of years prior to the common era. Therefore I fail to see the earth-shattering impact of this text.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:24 pm

I think that is Christian theology, Monk, not Jewish.

The Messiah they were waiting for had to attain these goals.

Most of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well.

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[4]
* He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:26 pm

That the Jesus story is mythology and not history has already been discussed in the context of there being so many other stories around at the time, and prior to it, which feature a godman who is born to a virgin, who dies and who rises again on the third day.

But also among the earliest Christians, there are so many non-canonical versions of the story that it is obvious that the one we are given in the gospels is just the one that got picked out of all of them, for reasons which I guess we'll never know.

In one of them, called the Paraphrase of Shem, it is a figure called Soldas who represents Jesus and who is crucified. According to Basilides (a 2nd century philosopher) it is not Jesus who is crucified but Simon of Cyrene, who is portrayed as carrying Jesus's cross in the New Testament. In this story, Jesus looks on laughing - not because he is cruel, but because it is a metaphor for the death of the ego after which Jesus attains immortality, and attanining immortality after the death of the ego is at the heart of all initiation Mystery stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphrase_of_Shem

The Paraphrase of Shem is an apocryphal Gnostic writing discovered in the Codex VII of the Nag Hammadi Codices. It starts off saying that it is "[The] paraphrase which was about the unbegotten Spirit." It's an apocalyptic writing that talks of Shem's ascension and recension to Earth. It also throws its own spin on the Biblical Flood, Sodom's destruction, and the baptism and resurrection of the Savior.

It also refers to Shem as the first person on Earth which is similar to Old Testament teaching regarding Adam, but can also be connected to Jesus who, according to the New Testament said "Before Abraham was, I AM."

The Paraphrase of Shem ends saying:

Henceforth, O Shem, go in grace and continue in faith upon the earth. For every power of light and fire will be completed by me [49] because of you. For without you they will not be revealed until you speak them openly. When you cease to be upon the earth, they will [5] be given to the worthy ones. And apart from this proclamation, let them speak about you upon the earth, since they will take the carefree and agreeable land.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:48 pm

I want to be a Shemite.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:06 pm

Well, sorry Min - you're about 2,000 years too late. That wagon train has left!

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:04 am

What is the world of atheism coming to?

First Dawkins and Co threaten to start a new religion based on the rational which honours the sacred (whatever they think that is) but one that enforces (no less) the difference between the numinous and the superrnatural (whatever that means).

Now Min is saying he wants to join the Shems.

Face it guys, you're missing that good ol' down home religion!