Medicine Wheels On Canadian Prairies in The News

[E.P. Grondine]

kbs2244-I really wish you'd take your personal hate-on/politically motivated rants the hell off my thread.

There's a place called stormfront.org for fringe characters-why not head on over and introduce yourself to the knuckledraggers-this board is about Archaeology.

Hi Sam -

Unfortunately kb is just one of many. If you will write to me at epgrondine@yahoo.com, I'll be happy to send you a copy of my guide inside the cult archaeology industry. You will be amazed.

E.P.

[Minimalist]

kbs2244-I really wish you'd take your personal hate-on/politically motivated rants the hell off my thread.

Actually, Sam, I didn't think his reply was all that bad and, as the lawyers say, E.P. did "open the door " to that line of inquiry.

What I find curious is the notion that "gambling" supplies any sort of rationale. Whether they were first or not seems far less relevant than the idea that the various tribes were given limited sovereignty over their lands and that they may, if they so choose, operate gambling establishments.

KB, if it were scientifically determined beyond a reasonable doubt that the ancestors of the modern NA tribes were not here first.... so what? The treaties remain in place and the tribes will continue to exercise their rights under those treaties as long as a sufficient number of people want to gamble. This is a question about money...not history.

[E.P. Grondine]

Actually, Sam, I didn't think his reply was all that bad and, as the lawyers say, E.P. did "open the door " to that line of inquiry.

Hi Min - Exactly how did I "open the door"?

E.P.

[Minimalist]

kb, your comment is so filled with errors I don't even know where to start.

That invited a response, E.P.

[kbs2244]

I didn't pick the "We were here first, so we deserve to be treated better" argument.
They did.
They used it as the foundation of their publicity campaign, and it worked very well.
So they cannot let it be undone.
And that forces them to stand in the way of new discoveries.
And that is what I don't like.

I would have much preferred they went with the legal rights given by the treaties argument.

[E.P. Grondine]

Actually, Min, I didn't start it.

Canada has the same problems with these kinds of ideas as does the US. It is called money. The huge amounts that Indian Gambling pump into the political process. The whole white guilt campaign the got the Indians the “right” to own casinos is based on the fabrication that they were what in Canada are called “The First Peoples.”

BS, kb - The link I provided shows Canadian work on medicine wheels.
Their archaeologists work on limited budgets, so if they have not yet checked the astronomical alignment of every structure that is understandable.

The casinos exist under treaty rights, and I think that the estimate is that perhaps up to 75% of all Canadians have some Native American ancestry.

The problem is that they weren’t the “First.”

Who was then, kb, in your opinion?

They, in fact, have oral histories of driving out settled inhabitants when they migrated into the area.

Who was it they drove out, kb?

Those same histories attribute the medicine wheels to those predecessors.

Which histories are you referring to, kb?

But anybody that depends on any kind of government funding or salary cannot agree to that because of the political contributions funded by the casinos. Such ideas threaten the whole house of cards.

kb - Casino money plays no role in the resistance to pre-clovis that I know of, or in the resistance to trans-oceanic contact. If you can cite a direct example, then do do.

The Plaines Indians were nomads.

Okay - They would move throughout the year in a fairly regular manner, following game. But they also planted gardens.

They have no history of making anything permanent.

Actually they do. At several western river junctions they had small mounds on the heights above them.

They have no history of working with stone other than arrow heads.

There are examples of stone work for other items besides points and tools. "Jewelry", and pipes, for example.

As far as structures goes, I dimly seem to remember that they built cairns.

They were, and are, real good at telling the weather, and seasons, but have no history of astronomy.

Actually, they do, but you just don't know their astronomy. kb.

Min, once again, I did not start this, but I hope to end it forever. Min, Sam, please write to me for a copy of my expose of today's cult archaeology.
You will understand who confused kb, why they did it, and how.

kb is just one of many.

[kbs2244]

E.P.
This will be my last post on the subject.
We will have to agree to disagree. For whatever reasons you are in love with the current Indian organizations and do not see them as an obstruction to discovery. I do.
To take on your last point first. I have read your expose. All 130 pages of it. I found it interesting and informative. Although I recognized some of the names in it, I am not a follower of any of the people you mention in it. I have not been “misled” by any of them. I am not a Nazi, a member of the KKK, a believer in Edgar Cayce, belong to any “secrete cults,” etc.
I just want any and all backed up scientific discoveries made known to the general public. After your career, I would expect you to be agreement with that desire.
This is a map of Canada Casino locations. The US map is even more frightening. It has gotten to the point that the prairie cities of Canada are fighting to get casino. This has nothing to do with treaties. Most of these are “off reservation” locations. They can be built only because of the Indians favored status as owners. They are chasing the tourist dollar. Indian casinos are big bucks in both the US and Canada.
http://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/canada-casinos/map
Your listed site was at the Royal Alberta Museum. The Royal Alberta Museum is government supported. The administrators have to walk a fine line between science and what is “Politically Correct.” The casinos bring in big tax money. They are not taxed directly, but the auxiliary hotels, restaurants, road construction, etc is.
As someone much smarter than me said “The love of money is root of evil.”
Now as far as who built the wheels, I will repeat, I have no idea.
The Ute are current US tribe in the area of the Wyoming wheel.
Note the 1276 date. That is pretty late. Who was there before them?
http://www.southern-ute.nsn.us/history/chronology.html
A good guess is that it may be these people. Note the last paragraph
http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/People/fremont.htm
Note the “Different Than Later People” about 2/3 down
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman2.html
This is a map of some pre-Indian sites. I do not believe the group sponsoring this website is mentioned in your expose. And with good reason.
http://www.friendsofpast.org/earliest-a ... s/map.html
Spirit Cave Man and these other locations are acknowledged by “mainstream” archaeology. But, again, the Indians can afford to ignore them unless they get to much publicity. That is why there was the big controversy over Kennewick Man, but not other discoveries.
http://www.archaeology.org/9609/newsbriefs/nevada.html
You mentioned the “pre-Clovis” debate. It is just over the heads of the general public and again the Indians can afford to ignore it. If it ever gets to be front page news, and they haven’t changed their tactics, it will get their attention.
I will repeat that I have nothing against the Indians as a people or a culture. What they did when they moved into an area isn’t anything different then has been done around the world. You mention their migrations and movements in your book about impacts in the western hemisphere. All that research should have told you they were not what they now claim. And that misleading of the public is what I object to.
I think they made a huge strategy error when they picked being first as their reason to be favored. And I object o their tactics in defending that error.

[kbs2244]

To all:
Sorry for the double post.
Like E. P. I am in north Illinois,
and my fingers are cold and stiff.

[Minimalist]

Actually, Min, I didn't start it.

This isn't an elementary school recess and it isn't a question of starting anything. You asked a question which invited a reply.

I took care of the double-post.

[E.P. Grondine]

E.P.
This will be my last post on the subject.

Well that is some good news. I have had a stroke, and typing is difficult.

We will have to agree to disagree. For whatever reasons you are in love with the current Indian organizations and do not see them as an obstruction to discovery. I do.

kb, I don't think I explained to you how I ended up with my stroke - it was due to diabetes, which runs in my family, due to Native American heritage. I am in fact 1/8 Shawnee, enough for diabetes and stroke, but not enough for the casino.

"love" is not the correct word; Native Americans and people of heritage are just trying to work their way through, sometimes in what I may view as good ways, and sometimes not. But these are not my decisions, and since my stroke I am particularly reluctant to comment on the decisions of others.

But your mistakes are so obvious, as we have seen them made by others, and so outrageous, that I am undertaking the effort to type this reply.

Let's start at the top - stop using the word "Indian". It confuses my friends from Bombay and Dehli. The keep showing up at powwows looking for a good curry and are alarmed to find buffalo on the grill.

Since you seem oblivious to spiritual matters, and I am not your spiritual guide, let me see if I can explain a part of this problem to you in terms you'll understand. I am thinking of forming the Native American archaeological association. The plan is to dig up Andrew Jackson and George Washington's graves to examine their remains for signs of venereal disease; advanced syphilis may provide explanation for their cruelty.

To take on your last point first. I have read your expose. All 130 pages of it. I found it interesting and informative. Although I recognized some of the names in it, I am not a follower of any of the people you mention in it. I have not been “misled” by any of them. I am not a Nazi, a member of the KKK, a believer in Edgar Cayce, belong to any “secrete cults,” etc.

Well that's some good news - you had Sam and myself convinced that you were an insane dimwit racist neo-Nazi, so you'd fit right.

I just want any and all backed up scientific discoveries made known to the general public. After your career, I would expect you to be agreement with that desire.

Agree completely. But in my view human remains should only be handled by those capable of treating them with competence and respect. Most Native Americans hold as a religious belief that disturbing human remains causes the spirit of their owner to return until the disturbance is ended. You don't have to believe this, it is merely that if you respect the beliefs of others on a very important matter to them it shows that you show some respect for others.

I think of this in terms of autopsies, and if you're not capable of carrying out an autopsy after several millenia, if you're not competent, you shouldn't be doing it. I don't think a necessary autopsy is disturbing or disrespectful, but that is just my opinion - others differ, and I can only stress the needs of the living to them.

From what I know of DNA testing, it is my thinking that DNA testing can always be done, as it is non-destructive. Thus the data can be gathered, and the samples of the remains that that data was gathered from then handled appropriately. But that is just my opinion.

This is a map of Canada Casino locations. The US map is even more frightening. It has gotten to the point that the prairie cities of Canada are fighting to get casino. This has nothing to do with treaties. Most of these are “off reservation” locations. They can be built only because of the Indians favored status as owners. They are chasing the tourist dollar. Indian casinos are big bucks in both the US and Canada.
http://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/canada-casinos/map

It is true the peoples will use casino money and power to stop what they view as the disrespectful treatment of human remains, whether of their own people or another people.

Your listed site was at the Royal Alberta Museum. The Royal Alberta Museum is government supported. The administrators have to walk a fine line between science and what is “Politically Correct.” The casinos bring in big tax money. They are not taxed directly, but the auxiliary hotels, restaurants, road construction, etc is.
As someone much smarter than me said “The love of money is root of evil.”

Perhaps the Royal Alberta Museum people are just showing normal human decency and respect, which appear to be things that either you don't understand or you don't think the first peoples deserve.

Now as far as who built the wheels, I will repeat, I have no idea.

Yes you do, you just won't say it, because there are many who could shoot down your hypothesis in a minute:

The Ute are current US tribe in the area of the Wyoming wheel.
Note the 1276 date. That is pretty late. Who was there before them?
http://www.southern-ute.nsn.us/history/chronology.html
A good guess is that it may be these people. Note the last paragraph
http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/People/fremont.htm
Note the “Different Than Later People” about 2/3 down
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman2.html
This is a map of some pre-Indian sites. I do not believe the group sponsoring this website is mentioned in your expose. And with good reason.
http://www.friendsofpast.org/earliest-a ... s/map.html
Spirit Cave Man and these other locations are acknowledged by “mainstream” archaeology. But, again, the Indians can afford to ignore them unless they get to much publicity. That is why there was the big controversy over Kennewick Man, but not other discoveries.
http://www.archaeology.org/9609/newsbriefs/nevada.html

I have no problem with Ainu related early people on the Pacific coast. Nor do I have any problem with the necessary proper studies of the remains by those qualified. If they're Ainu related, then perhaps Ainu elders should be called in for advice on their handling.

But when you move those people well inland, point to non-Ainu cultural features and claim them as Ainu, ignore DNA evidence showing those people not to be Ainu related, and finally ignore both Siouxian history and other peoples accounts of the early Siouxian peoples at contact, then don't be surprised if some people think you're a racist idiot. It seems a rational deduction to them based on the evidence you provide them with.

You mentioned the “pre-Clovis” debate. It is just over the heads of the general public and again the Indians can afford to ignore it. If it ever gets to be front page news, and they haven’t changed their tactics, it will get their attention.

The pre-Clovis debate has already been front page news, kb, but guess what, in southern North America the people are C DNA and savanah river DNA, and maybe B and D, NOT your Ainu descendants. That's the facts.

I will repeat that I have nothing against the Indians as a people or a culture. What they did when they moved into an area isn’t anything different then has been done around the world. You mention their migrations and movements in your book about impacts in the western hemisphere. All that research should have told you they were not what they now claim.

kb, you have poor reading and comprehension skills. The stunning finding of my book is that they were exactly what they claimed, despite the attempts of some racist idiots to create imaginary histories for them. In other words, the peoples' traditions and the archaeological record lock.

The key to that lock was the impact events. That's the hard fact.

And that misleading of the public is what I object to.

That's what Sam and I object to as well.

I think they made a huge strategy error when they picked being first as their reason to be favored. And I object to their tactics in defending that error.

"Favored"? "Error"?

kb, before you comment again, please take a few minutes to consider that as little as 140,000 years may be all that separates you from the reddest "Indian", or the blackest African, or the "yellowest" Oriental. Others would place the time span at even less than that, only 70,000 years or so.

This has been very difficult for me, and despite some of my harsh words, I really do hope that in the end my words here bring you some peace. Since this is the end of this matter, please take a moment to consider that perhaps your anger has another source or reason, one having nothing to do with Native Americans or archaeology.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[Cognito]

There's the remains at Pyramid Lake(?) in northern Nevada as well. By the way, do you remember the name of that lake that was tapped to provide water for Los Angeles?

EP, that was Owens Lake. See here:

http://geochange.er.usgs.gov/sw/impacts/geology/owens/

Los Angeles was also after the water at Mono Lake, but was stopped before it could be destroyed. The area is very interesting and steeped in Native American tradition, mainly Pah-Ute. Many, many petroglyph and hot spring sites. During wetter times the long Owens Valley would have been a paradise.

[E.P. Grondine]

Thanks Cognito - I would agree that during wetter times Owens Lake must have been a paradise. I wonder what archaeological remains have been found there.

E.P.

[kbs2244]

E.P.

I am Black.

[E.P. Grondine]

E.P.

I am Black.

Great - it's time for me to try some jokes - Fair warning - I did inherit a wicked sense of humor along with the predisposition to diabetes.

Black folk complain about their ancestors having to use separate restrooms. For NDNs, the restrooms were in another state.

Black folk complain about their ancestors having had separate water fountains. For NDNs, the water fountains were in another state, and they had no water.

Black folk complain about their ancestors having had separate schools.
For NDNs, the schools were in another state, and the schools' teachers beat their culture out of their children.

You seem to resent the casinos as a sign of favoritism. They're there by accident due to some rights overlooked in the treaties used to steal NDN lands. Most NDNs will gladly give up the casinos in return for the lands.