14-36,000 Years Ago Winds Across North America From the East

[Digit]

Absolutely.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Ironically, about the only thing that makes a "Solutrean" a "Solutrean" is a particular shape of stone point.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Ironically, about the only thing that makes a "Solutrean" a "Solutrean" is a particular shape of stone point.

The 'only thing'? I was under the impresssion they were also associated with hundreds of cave paintings, thousands of beads, and a number of hearth places... I.o.w.: a culture. (The hominid type of which is still uncertain of course).

[MFK6]

The Solutrean appeared in Spain 19,000 BCE ranging into France and Southern England. They disappeared from the area 15,000 BCE. Their tool making industry was different, totally new compared with their predecessors; the Mousterian. Solutrean culture did indeed use bone and antler for tools also. Caches of Clovis tools are found throughout the United States (below glacier lines). Even if some Solutreans decided to cross over the ice from Europe why couldn't they have taken many years(eating from the sea and possibly the ice)just as those crossing the Bering Straits? After looking at some of the Solutrean artwork, they were advanced in their abilities. Their tools were wonderful for the time. As for fire - they were known to have fire and probably knew how to carry flint to start it. Maybe they burned oil or dung. I wish we would be able to find cave art which could be identified with them here in the US - but no such luck as yet. It appears that they moved up river from the coast line but, of course, it was a different coastline and what we are looking for as more evidence is under water. If the comet came as hypothesized these poor people only had a thousand years or so to enjoy all the food and fauna here before they were crushed. Wonder what life would have been like if they had had better luck and prospered here.

[Minimalist]

Lots of people did cave paintings, R/S.

Only the Solutreans made Solutrean points.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] why couldn't they have taken many years(eating from the sea and possibly the ice)just as those crossing the Bering Straits? [...]

"Why couldn't they have taken many years"? They probably did! Possibly even generations! As they weren't actually heading towards America, because they didn't even know it was there. They weren't heading anywhere, really. They were simply leading a hunting existence as nomads on the ice edge, and one day accidentally stumbled upon America.

[Digit]

They could only have taken years/generations if they could have survived without land anywhere. Which brings us back to the subject of butchering animals with thick skins without stone tools, to which we must add fire making materials that would/would not be available to people who never touched land in all that time!

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

They could only have taken years/generations if they could have survived without land anywhere. Which brings us back to the subject of butchering animals with thick skins without stone tools, to which we must add fire making materials that would/would not be available to people who never touched land in all that time!

If Inuit could, then Solutreans could, Roy.

[Digit]

The Inuit tend to live part of the year on solid land and had access to stone.
At the time we are discussing the edge of the ice was much further south so any stone would have had to be collected from either end of the trek or from any islands to the south of the ice.
The alternative would have to have been a trek of many miles across the ice to any exposed rock on Iceland or Greenland, if any was exposed.
And that still leaves us with the problem of fire.
If I remember correctly there were no Inuit around that part of the world at that time either.
Also the Inuit use boats.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I seem to recall that because of the lower (dramatically!) sea levels, there was land exposed at the Grand Banks, if no where else. Like Digit, though, I tend to see this as more short-duration trips rather than an ice bound existence.

Agreeing that one can use animal fat to burn the question still remains about what was used for kindling? You have to get the fire started before you can worry about what to burn?

[kbs2244]

RS;

Is what you are purposing is the whole family was in these boats wile hunting?
Not just a “hunting party” that went out and brought back food to a camp?

Or would there be temporary camps on the ice while they followed the migration of the sea mammals?

I am thinking of something like the “villages” of the NA plains Indians as they followed the buffalo.
Semi-permanent, but they would pick up and move when the game did.

But either way, isn’t that a major change in behavior form a land based hunter gather existence to a sea based one?

Is there any evidence that the Solutreans were open water boaters while in the southern Europe area?

[dannan14]

I would think that fire would be a bigger problem. Somehow, eating raw seal or sea lion does not seem too appetizing but, perhaps that's just me?

There is a novel call "Top of the World" which is a very interesting insight into the lives of Polar Eskimos, the ones who rarely or never leave the ice. Fish was eaten frozen, seal and polar bear meat was left to rot next to the hearth before eating. It's a short novel, but the research behind it seemed to be sound. It might give a few answers to the questions in this thread.

[Digit]

rarely

Rarely would give them, either directly or via trading, access to stone for butchering and either flint or wood for fire starting.
Neither of these alternatives would have been available to Solutreans as the Inuit hadn't made it to anywhere near them.
The idea of people over wintering on sea ice sounds a little unlikely.
This debate goes back to, I believe dannan, before your time and I have pointed out in the past that the Solutreans would have been pretty certain as to the existence of a land to the west.
Each year the Great Auk, a flightless bird, disappeared from the European sea board to return later in the year with juveniles accompanying them.
Two and two would have made four I think!

Roy.

[Minimalist]

It might give a few answers to the questions in this thread.

Oh, I'm fully prepared to admit that the problem is mainly mine!

[Rokcet Scientist]

Is what you are purposing is the whole family was in these boats wile hunting?
Not just a “hunting party” that went out and brought back food to a camp?

Could be. But not neccesarily. The whole family, from old to young, pulling its weight in the hunt wouldn't surprise me. Papuas do the same.
I can also envisage the men going out to sea to hunt in small kayaks, while the women and children either stayed in camp, or trekked along the ice edge, to build a new camp a couple miles further west, and meet up with the hunters again.
But I can just as easily envisage a scenario with no boats involved at all. After all, hunting sea mammals and Great Auks on the ice is much easier, and a lot less risky, than hunting them at sea from frail 'boats'.

Or would there be temporary camps on the ice while they followed the migration of the sea mammals?

By definition!

I am thinking of something like the “villages” of the NA plains Indians as they followed the buffalo.
Semi-permanent, but they would pick up and move when the game did.

Exactly the same indeed.
And as the prevailing winds were west, that would be the general direction of the Solutreans' "game" too (not a little augmented by the fact that their pursuers – pressure – came from the east...). Automatically leading their stalkers, eventually, to America!

But either way, isn’t that a major change in behavior form a land based hunter gather existence to a sea based one?

Well, a change from a land based hunter/gatherer existence to an ICE based hunter/gatherer existence (please forget the 'boats' for a minute) is not nearly as major. But even if it was, why not? If the pressure to do so was enough, they'd do it. They'd have no option but to adapt. Or die...

The ancestors of present day Polynesians changed from a land based existence (on the Asian land mass) to a sea based one (on the Pacific islands) too. For whatever reasons. So it can happen, and it does happen. No surprises there.

Is there any evidence that the Solutreans were open water boaters while in the southern Europe area?

There are clear cave paintings of boats in southern Europe, dating back to well before the Solutreans. So if the Solutreans didn't invent boats themselves you may assume they knew about those cave paintings by their predecessors, as they lived in the same caves!