The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters

jw1815
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by jw1815 »

Personally, I've always found mutual understandability to be a useful guide to language families


I can’t imagine why. It wouldn’t be a useful guide at all in identifying the fact that both English and Polish belong to the IE language family, since native English and native Polish speakers don’t understand each other without being taught each other’s language. But, English and Polish belong to different sub groupings of IE (Germanic and Slavic), so they’re more distantly related than, say, English and German. But, even though English belongs to the Germanic branch of IE and has numerous cognates with German, English and German speakers also don’t understand each other without being taught each other’s language. Despite the cognates and having taken some German courses, plus hearing it spoken occasionally by German-born grandparents, I’m not fluent enough in it to fully comprehend a lengthy conversation or long article in German.

Some languages within a family are close enough to be almost mutually intelligible, e.g. Spanish and Italian, both in the Romance branch of IE. I’ve studied Latin and Spanish and am reasonably fluent in Spanish, so I can often comprehend written and spoken Italian (and written, but not spoken French), but not enough for complete understanding. And there are dialects of Italian and Spanish that wouldn’t be mutually intelligible. For that matter, I sometimes can’t comprehend Australian English because of differences in pronunciation. Some dialects, accents, and colloquialisms of British English aren’t comprehensible to me. Hell, I’ve sometimes even had to ask American English speakers from Tennessee to spell words before I knew what they were saying.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

jw1815 wrote:
No, I'm not confusing Hittite and Hurrian, just noting Bjarte Kadhols' suggestions on a possible Linear A/Hurrian relationship. And of course, Brown's identification of Linear A as Lycian may be accepted as proved.
Linear A, of course, has NOT been identified to any specific language family, let alone to a specific language.
Alas, I am afraid the damsel is a maiden no more. Have you seen Dr. Brown's papers on the development of the Linear A syllabic values?
jw1815 wrote: But, if it had been identified as Lycian, then that would negate the suggestion from Kaldhol of a possible relationship to Hurrian, since Hurrian and Lycian are not related in any way. Kaldhol does favor a connection between Linear A and Hurrian. However, in Kaldhol’s own words in the following excerpt from a list serve conversation, the suggestion of a relationship between Lycian and Linear A (or AB - shared A and B symbols) is “absurd.”

http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/m031.htm

My comment: I can think of words in many languages that would explain the Linear AB acrophonogram KA, for example the Hurrian kakkare (a round bread; compare the many Minoan words ending in -are). To look for Indo-European (and even Greek!) parallels will lead us astray, since what (little) we know about Minoan Linear A, indicates that the language is very different from IE. To compare Lycian and Minoan Linear A is absurd, because Lycian as we know it, is more than a thousand years younger than Minoan (and so is Latin). When the Cretan scripts developed at the beginning of the second millennium BC, the speakers of IE Anatolian languages had barely arrived in Anatolia.
Actually, it worked very well.
jw1815 wrote:Lycian inscriptions are known from 500-200 BC. Lycian did not exist when Linear A developed. It decended from a western Luwian/Luvian dialect, and as far as I can see, not even Luwian, which is closer to Linear A in time, can be related to Minoan Linear A. (If there were a relationship, it would have been fairly easy to demonstrate, and one would have expected that the several hundred Minoan names known from Linear A tablets would have been similar to Luwian and Hittite names.
It was fairly easy for Brown to demonstrate. And actually, one can read the Phaistos Disk fairly well using "Hittite Hieroglyphs". Royal names, little less IE ones - forget it.
jw1815 wrote: Also, as far as we know, there was almost no contact between the Minoans and their Anatolian neighbours in the form of written correspondence. If the Minoans were related to the Hittites and the Luwians, wouldn't we have expected frequent diplomatic exchanges? Have any Hittite letters ever been found on Crete? Is Minoan Crete ever mentioned in Hittite sources?)
Actually we can see those regular contacts shown in the Thera frescos, particularly between Wilusa and Thera. Note the "sun' on the bow of the principle ship in one fresco, with an outline of Troy (Ilios) shown behind it, including its canal system.
jw1815 wrote:Hurrian, by the way, is probably not a Caucasian language. It originated in eastern Anatolia and the northern Tigris area.
And then the relation to the Anatolian neighbors to the west before the arrival of the Hittites?

Best wishes,
E.P. Grondine
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Minimalist wrote:Again, EP, and not to belabor the point, but modern archaeology dismisses these tales of Israelites in Egypt. The current theory backed by artifacts is that "Israel" and "Judah" arose independently in the eastern hill country around 1,200 BC probably in the aftermath of Sea People assaults and general economic collapse.
If one chooses to start their archaeology and history at that point, that is fine, but if one looks where those people came from, then ...
Minimalist wrote:There seems to be a lot of doubt about Hittite chronology except where it comes into contact with Egypt. Ahmose I is fairly consistently dated to the period between 1550 and 1525 BC.
No doubt, min, see Astour's definitive study, and actually, min, the date for HIttite chronology comes from an astronomical text.

The date for Hatushili I is now firm, as is the Hittite middle chronology. All else follows.
Thera's eruption, Encke's appearance, and the hits of Encke fragments nail it, leaving the OT out of it entirely.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

jw1815 wrote:
Personally, I've always found mutual understandability to be a useful guide to language families

Hell, I’ve sometimes even had to ask American English speakers from Tennessee to spell words before I knew what they were saying.
Before or after the bourbon?
I've found "slower, please" is a very valuable phrase.
kbs2244
Posts: 2472
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by kbs2244 »

In Arkansas I have had to say "faster, please."
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16015
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by Minimalist »

If one chooses to start their archaeology and history at that point, that is fine, but if one looks where those people came from, then ..

Modern archaeology has looked at where they came from. They originated in the eastern hill country c 1200 BC. There was no Egyptian period.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
jw1815
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by jw1815 »

Before or after the bourbon?
I've found "slower, please" is a very valuable phrase.


Definitely a case of pronunciation, not bourbon or pacing of speech. Example - pronouncing a long "a" like a long "i." The word lane becomes line. Main = mine. Etc.
Last edited by jw1815 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jw1815
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by jw1815 »

E.P. Grondine wrote:
jw1815 wrote:
No, I'm not confusing Hittite and Hurrian, just noting Bjarte Kadhols' suggestions on a possible Linear A/Hurrian relationship. And of course, Brown's identification of Linear A as Lycian may be accepted as proved.
Linear A, of course, has NOT been identified to any specific language family, let alone to a specific language.
Alas, I am afraid the damsel is a maiden no more. Have you seen Dr. Brown's papers on the development of the Linear A syllabic values?
jw1815 wrote: But, if it had been identified as Lycian, then that would negate the suggestion from Kaldhol of a possible relationship to Hurrian, since Hurrian and Lycian are not related in any way. Kaldhol does favor a connection between Linear A and Hurrian. However, in Kaldhol’s own words in the following excerpt from a list serve conversation, the suggestion of a relationship between Lycian and Linear A (or AB - shared A and B symbols) is “absurd.”

http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/m031.htm

My comment: I can think of words in many languages that would explain the Linear AB acrophonogram KA, for example the Hurrian kakkare (a round bread; compare the many Minoan words ending in -are). To look for Indo-European (and even Greek!) parallels will lead us astray, since what (little) we know about Minoan Linear A, indicates that the language is very different from IE. To compare Lycian and Minoan Linear A is absurd, because Lycian as we know it, is more than a thousand years younger than Minoan (and so is Latin). When the Cretan scripts developed at the beginning of the second millennium BC, the speakers of IE Anatolian languages had barely arrived in Anatolia.
Actually, it worked very well.
jw1815 wrote:Lycian inscriptions are known from 500-200 BC. Lycian did not exist when Linear A developed. It decended from a western Luwian/Luvian dialect, and as far as I can see, not even Luwian, which is closer to Linear A in time, can be related to Minoan Linear A. (If there were a relationship, it would have been fairly easy to demonstrate, and one would have expected that the several hundred Minoan names known from Linear A tablets would have been similar to Luwian and Hittite names.
It was fairly easy for Brown to demonstrate. And actually, one can read the Phaistos Disk fairly well using "Hittite Hieroglyphs". Royal names, little less IE ones - forget it.
jw1815 wrote: Also, as far as we know, there was almost no contact between the Minoans and their Anatolian neighbours in the form of written correspondence. If the Minoans were related to the Hittites and the Luwians, wouldn't we have expected frequent diplomatic exchanges? Have any Hittite letters ever been found on Crete? Is Minoan Crete ever mentioned in Hittite sources?)
Actually we can see those regular contacts shown in the Thera frescos, particularly between Wilusa and Thera. Note the "sun' on the bow of the principle ship in one fresco, with an outline of Troy (Ilios) shown behind it, including its canal system.
jw1815 wrote:Hurrian, by the way, is probably not a Caucasian language. It originated in eastern Anatolia and the northern Tigris area.
And then the relation to the Anatolian neighbors to the west before the arrival of the Hittites?

Best wishes,
E.P. Grondine

You're addressing your comments to the wrong person. The sections you're quoting from my post were written by Bjarte Kaldhol, not by me. You brought up Kaldhol and I quoted his comments from the link that I provided in my post in order to show that he regards a relationship between Lycian and Linear A as absurd. In those comments of his that I posted, he also gave his view - and solid, sound reasons for it - on the lack of a relationship between Linear A and any IE or Semitic languages. (1. Lycian was an IE language, 1000 years AFTER Linear A. 2. IE languages have completely different grammatical structures from Linear A. 3. Semitic languages are highly consonantal, but Linear A is highly vocalic.)

It's fun to learn about ancient languages and their cultural and linguistic connections. It's fun to speculate on their relationships. But philology and epigraphy are very specialized fields for amateurs to delve into. For amateurs like you and I to follow the work of the world's philologists and epigraphists on tracing an unknown language like Linear A requires some knowledge of the varieties of language structures; distinguishing morphemes and phonemes; the substitution patterns of phonemes from one language to another within the same linguistic family; the difference between loan words and native words and how those differences are determined; the varieties of written forms of languages (syllabic, alphabetic, hieroglyphic, ideograms, etc.); the adaptations of one language’s writing system to a totally different language; grammatical inflections, e.g. conjugations and declensions; and the methods of comparison and decipherment used by epigraphists. Some knowledge of the cultures being considered and their time periods is also useful.

To make a definitive statement about which philologist or epigraphist is “absolutely” correct above all others on a complex project like the identification and decipherment of Minoan Linear A requires more understanding of language families than demonstrated in your comment that mutual understandability is a useful guide to language families.

So, with all due respect to your right to your own views on the origins of Linear A, I accept the view of the majority of the world’s philologists and epigraphists on ancient languages that the linguistic family and specific individual language of Linear A have not yet been determined, nor the script itself yet been deciphered.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

I used to follow this in some depth, and had some of those capabilities which you listed. My abilities and results were such that they rated above those of amateur following the field. The book I never got to write was going to be "Man and Impact in the Ancient Near East".

For me, Brown's analysis of Linear A was conclusive. But that's just in my opinion, and I have been wrong before, and reserve the right to be wrong both now and in the future.

I hope that as the excavations on Thera continue and elsewhere continue, enough inscriptions will be recovered to make the reading of Linear A certain.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

jw1815 wrote: To make a definitive statement about which philologist or epigraphist is “absolutely” correct above all others on a complex project like the identification and decipherment of Minoan Linear A requires more understanding of language families than demonstrated in your comment that mutual understandability is a useful guide to language families.
Boozhou/Bezon -

I still find "Would you say that again slowly, please?" to be a really useful phrase for IE, though I don't go much beyond Europe for that. It seems to work for Algonquin as well. Once you understand the phoneme shifts between related languages, and a few of the relations in grammar, it makes comprehension easier.

Russian had a lot of French and German loan words for modern technologies.

While I don't know enough semetic languages to comment further here, and lost my citation of semetic language phoneme counts, I "played" with LInear A to the point of actually writing a "toy". Based on syllabic sign loading, the underlying phonology was not IE; but then that was already known from Linear B spelling variations.

Culturally, some PIE used spiral city and building foundation inscriptions, which promised certain sacrifices at certain times.

Since my stroke, I simply hope that enough of my brain is left to remember some Shawnee.

megwich/begwich
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

It appears that the new find of a seal of Hamurabi from Tel Daba is going to provide a synchronization point.


http://egyptology.blogspot.com/2009/11/ ... vered.html



Edit: I added a link to the story, E.P.

--Min
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Minimalist wrote:
If one chooses to start their archaeology and history at that point, that is fine, but if one looks where those people came from, then ..
Modern archaeology has looked at where they came from. They originated in the eastern hill country c 1200 BC. There was no Egyptian period.
Min, this is not a matter of religion for me, nor or nationalism, as my interest in that area laid with the "Minoans", and my religion is my own. And I don't allow any weight for ancient slanders of the ancient Israelites.

You don't have to believe in G*d to allow that perhaps the Old Testament scribes had earlier and accurate materials from which they worked; I will allow that those materials may have been borrowed, if it gives you any peace.

This gentleman disagrees with you, and he has a compelling analysis:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/d ... hron2m.PDF

in which he cites a lot more evidence than you do. All of it is from contemporary documents and excavation, with the OT materials merely compared. As as matter of fact, his knowledge of the various proposed 2cd millennia chronologies is nearly comprehensive.

Before my stroke I used to know this stuff thoroughly, but I found this piece by looking at bits I had saved off, and had forgotten about it completely.

Note especially that the newly found Hamurabi seals from Tel Daba fit this chronology exactly.

About the only adjustment is that we know that the Thera eruption occurred in 1628 BCE. Which leaves this fellow off by some 18 years for one date only.

Now how do we know the Thera eruption occurred in 1628 BCE? By tree rings most precisely; and by ice cores nearly as well. Comet Encke's appearance in 1628 BCE, which is determined by gravity, most likely led to the mention of the pillar of light in the East which guided Moses during the exodus from Egypt.

The point I'm trying to get to here is that when mid second millenia contemporaneous written records make mention of an impact event, then those records can not be thrown out just because the writing known as Joshua mention it as well.
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16015
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by Minimalist »

E.P., here is the home page for heraldmag.org.

http://www.heraldmag.org/



I suspect they have a certain point of view, perhaps best stated by their own words.
The Herald of Christ's Kingdom is the official publication of the Pastoral Bible Institute. Published since 1918, this journal stands for a belief in:

• The inspiration of the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
• God, the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ, who act through the power of the Holy Spirit
• The Genesis account of Creation in six epochs of time. The creation of Adam as the first man, a perfect moral human being, who became a living soul.
• The redemption of all mankind through the blood of Christ.
• The call of the church to receive immortal life in heaven.
• The resurrection of the dead and the kingdom of Christ to be established on earth with an opportunity for all mankind to live forever.

Meanwhile, I suggest you read Israel Finkelstein's "The Bible Unearthed" to find out what archaeology has to say about this issue.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

jw1815 wrote: It's fun to learn about ancient languages and their cultural and linguistic connections. It's fun to speculate on their relationships. But philology and epigraphy are very specialized fields for amateurs to delve into. For amateurs like you and I to follow the work of the world's philologists and epigraphists on tracing an unknown language like Linear A requires some knowledge of the varieties of language structures; distinguishing morphemes and phonemes; the substitution patterns of phonemes from one language to another within the same linguistic family; the difference between loan words and native words and how those differences are determined; the varieties of written forms of languages (syllabic, alphabetic, hieroglyphic, ideograms, etc.); the adaptations of one language’s writing system to a totally different language; grammatical inflections, e.g. conjugations and declensions; and the methods of comparison and decipherment used by epigraphists. Some knowledge of the cultures being considered and their time periods is also useful.
Hey, enough with the amateur stuff - try dilettante instead.

You left out of your list a knowledge of basic cryptography and information theory, and concepts such as phonetic loading. Otherwise you would have caught my mention of "playing" with "toys".

As I expected enough written materials to be recovered from Thera to enable Linear A to be broken, I read through nearly everything on Linear A that was available earlier. I found other ways in along the way, other ways than standard cryptography. Even though my work on the psuedo-glosses of the spiral inscriptions was pretty good (and you have never seen that), Brown's work was the essential break.

Speaking of time periods and cultures, ever notice how Linear B inscriptions are always analyzed in terms of Greek, when Hittite is closer in time? For that matter, ever notice the complete lack of work on Mycenean Greek/Hittite cognates?
jw1815 wrote: To make a definitive statement about which philologist or epigraphist is “absolutely” correct above all others on a complex project like the identification and decipherment of Minoan Linear A requires more understanding of language families than demonstrated in your comment that mutual understandability is a useful guide to language families.
I agree, and I hope you found my comments above on cryptography and information theory both educational and informative. I stand by my comment on mutual understandability, and I stand by my observation on Brown's breakthrough work.
jw1815 wrote: So, with all due respect to your right to your own views on the origins of Linear A, I accept the view of the majority of the world’s philologists and epigraphists on ancient languages that the linguistic family and specific individual language of Linear A have not yet been determined, nor the script itself yet been deciphered.
Thanks for showing respect, but scientific "truth" is not determined by majority vote.

Data and paradigms that explain the data do.

For example, I was writing about the comet impacts that killed the mammoth some 6 years before Firestone and Kennett published their field work, and this "debate" is still going to continue for another 2 weeks, with die hards continuing on for 20 years at least.

To give you an idea of how slowly scientific paradigms change, the effects of the Chicxulub impact were being challenged a year ago, and no one had any idea of the impact of a fragmented comet, nor of the Shiva crater.

My experience is that someday most people do finally catch up.

By the way, culturally the use of spiral dedicatory inscriptions pretty much limited the solution space.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Minimalist wrote:E.P., here is the home page for heraldmag.org.

http://www.heraldmag.org/
I suspect they have a certain point of view, perhaps best stated by their own words.

Meanwhile, I suggest you read Israel Finkelstein's "The Bible Unearthed" to find out what archaeology has to say about this issue.
They do have a certain point of view, as does Finkelstein, but Parkinson's work stands independent of any religious view. Once again, its based on contemporaneous records and excavation data. You can pull out his proposed OT cognates, and it will stand quite well.

What you're missing in my opinion, min, is the materials those hill peoples of yours used for their writings. Many have shown parallels with materials from Ugarit, for example. And there were other literate people in the area.

I doubt if I will read Finkelstein's book, as I have my own work now in an entirely different hemisphere, and even if I could tear it to shreds, it would do little good, as people generally believe what they want to, until faced with the undeniable.

Like the seals from Tel Daba.

I watched Bietak cut Cline a new one several years ago over Cypriot yellow ware.

The only point of interest for me in all of this now is accurately dating the impacts.
The end of LM1B, and the role played by impact in the "Minoans" final destruction.
Post Reply