More on Southwest NA Cannibalism

[Rokcet Scientist]

So..
Have we decided that an un-sophisticated, but devoted, majority can overcome a more “advanced,” but minority ruled civilization?

Abso-fuckin'-lutely!

[E.P. Grondine]

[...] the near-universal sense (no matter how inchoate) that North America was the scene of an all-out racial war before the latest wave of Europeans arrived is one of the best evidences that there is one. Subconsciously the idea of it just rings "true" to people. I don't personally give the Book of Mormon that much credence, but the way the idea motivates its adherents is inarguable. It strikes a chord. [...]

Yeah, it strikes a bullshit chord! Just like the bible, the Qur'An, the Veda, Mein Kampf, and Mao's red booklet did! People want to hear BS! Because they are scared of reality.

Yes, you're absolutely right, RS, it is bullshit.

My book did not cover the South western peoples because their traditions and tradition keepers survived, and they will share what they want to about impacts when they want to. That said...

Now we have the western equivalent of the "mound builders" myths of the east being put forth, conveniently being used as a moral balm to justify the stealing of the lands. In other words, the Native peoples stole the lands from the "mound builders", so it is okay if we steal the lands from them.

Okay, here's the truth. Some Native peoples did engage in cannibalism, usually only in the case of bitter military victories, and eating was required. Otherwise...

The usual pattern in North America was very different than that of Europe: for lesser food crisis there was sharing, with assimilation of peoples usually being the case in migration, and genocide rarely engaged in except in very extraordinary circumstances. But there was a very severe climatic collapse in North America starting around the early 1100's, which lead to migrations; it was a case of move or everyone die: men, women, and children.

Even then, complete genocide was rare.

There was also a major volcanic eruption at Sunset Volcano near Flagstaff starting around 1100 CE. Around 1266 CE there was a massive drought in the South West, and a general plague about 1275 CE, though whether a hanta (western mouse) variant or Norse introduced disease is currently unknown.

You wonder why so much was lost to history? Add in about 5 major European plagues after Columbian contact, Christian teachings imposed along with European technologies, and then the stealing of the land.

These natural events will happen again, but right now we don't know when. Will we be able to prepare? Not if we don't listen. How will we react then when they happen? Past European behavior offers little room for optimism.

Yes, people are scared of reality, RS. The reality is that something drove those people to cannibalism. That something is a thing to be feared.

BTW, here's another truth: in Ohio, my Shawnee ancestors and the Cherokees' ancestors built most of the geometric mounds. Some mounds were built earlier by Andaste, others by the Wyandot's ancestors, and other "mounds" there were forts built by the Five Nation's ancestors and the Erie.

And yet another truth: In general, Mormons are a fine and moral people, but Joseph Smith's history must be put with his other personal failings. In my opinion.

[Digit]

Well that's the history of Europe thus far. We'll have to see what the future holds.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Mormons are a fine and moral people,

Yeah...if you overlook the polygamy, racism, homophobia and the Mountain Meadows Massacre......

[Digit]

And a bit like Uni's 'the holocaust never happened' Min the Mormons over here say that the MMM never happened, claiming it's all down to those who dislike Mormons.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

The same whine used by all religious nut jobs.

[E.P. Grondine]

Not that any of it was moral, but the one off of the Mountain Meadows Massacre pales in comparison with the continued "ethnic cleansings" of other western settlers.

[Digit]

It does indeed EP, also against the elimination of the Tasmanians, but my objection is to the C of JC of LDS is their denial of the MMM here in the UK.
It's the same as Pilger in this country denying the murders of the Abos in Oz and the Nazis denying the Holocaust.
Denial doesn't make it go away.
Over here the Muslims still scream about the Crusades, then ignore their invasions of North Africa, Spain, Central Asia, India and Eastern Europe.
Hypocracy runs deep with some.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Each group has their own 'god' telling them that its "okay."

Convenient to have an invisible sky-daddy who always tells you that you are right.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Even then, complete genocide was rare.

Considering how little we actually know and understand of the Black Death and its consequences to (relatively) 'civilized' and 'developed' Europe in 1348 I find it almost impossible to take that judgment, about 11th century illiterate (SW) native peoples, and earlier, seriously.

[Cognito]

Your (relatively) civilized and developed Europe in 1348 was not much more than a backward and filthy cesspool where most people were illiterate.

[E.P. Grondine]

Even then, complete genocide was rare.

Considering how little we actually know and understand of the Black Death and its consequences to (relatively) 'civilized' and 'developed' Europe in 1348 I find it almost impossible to take that judgment, about 11th century illiterate (SW) native peoples, and earlier, seriously.

RS - just what the points, pottery, DNA, and proto-histories indicate, in my judgment.

I think that everyone is missing the point here: there was an extraordinary situation that led to this extraordinary behavior.

It is curious that cannibalism is reported in the Curse of Akad and an Egyptian document referring to a climate collapse, and that so little notice is taken of them, or so little analysis done as to what caused those climate collapses.

You can be sure that they will happen again. Its just that we don't know when or how right now.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Your (relatively) civilized and developed Europe in 1348 was not much more than a backward and filthy cesspool where most people were illiterate.

Compared to today, yes. Compared to the rest of the world, in 1348, Europe was (relatively) civilized and developed.

[Minimalist]

[E.P. Grondine]

For Wichita cannibalism, see this site:

http://www.wimssite.nl/?pagina=hobby&onderwerp=128