An Article on Repatriation of Artifacts

[Minimalist]

This is an interesting article and, in the interest of full-disclosure, I got it from our old nemesis, Arch.

http://www.bib-arch.org/bar/article.asp ... &UserID=0&

Archaeological Views: A Case Against the Repatriation of Archaeological Artifacts

[dannan14]

Wow, that is really twisted. i thought most people got over "finders keepers" by the time they were 8.

[Minimalist]

Two points, though.

One. Hawass has wanted the Berlin Museum to return the Bust of Nefertiti for years and the Germans have refused. Had they acquiesced it would have been in Hawass' museum when looters stormed through it.

Two. In March 2001 the Taliban intentionally blew up two giant statues of Buddha on the grounds that they were "idols." What is to stop some other similarly barbaric nut case from destroying ancient artifacts for the same reason? The world is full of nuts.


The British committed no crime with the Elgin Marbles. They had the approval of the Turkish authorities who ran Athens ( "Greece" as a nation did not exist) and the Turks were so concerned with the Parthenon that they used it as an ammunition dump which was blown up when the Italians shelled the Acropolis.

It is a very complex issue.

[kbs2244]

At the risk of being what is currently considered politically incorrect;
I have to agree.

Those “relics” are more appreciated when far from “home” then when at “home.”

The Greeks were using the Elgin Marbles for target practice before Lord Elgin brought them to Britain.
He did not "steal" them.
He bought and paid for them from an unappreciative national government.
When at home such things are an “oh hum” museum display if they are lucky.

Hawass doesn’t want the various stuff back for any idealistic reason,
He is not an archeologist any more.
He is the guy in charge of the largest part of Egypt’s economy.
Tourism.

If he can get all the stuff back to Cairo then the museum entrance fees, hotel stays, cab fares, restruant meals, etc come to Egypt , not London or Berlin.
That is why he has his old job back.
He was able to tell the worlds tourist industry “All is well. The problems are over. It is back to business as usual.”

His example is being copied all through the world for the same reason.
It has no basis in "Bring them home."
The basis is "We want the money."

[Minimalist]

I agree. There is a difference between looters who sell stuff on the black market and museums which excavated artifacts themselves 100 years ago.

[dannan14]

While less likely, similar types of damage can happen when artifacts are kept in top rate museums. Terrorism, while far less dangerous than our governments want us to think it is, is a possible threat to cultural storehouses. The fact that many acquisitions were not illegal really means nothing to me. In 1624 the Lanape tribe "owned" Manhattan. Peter Munuit bought the island from them for trade goods worth 60 guilders, which, at the time, could have purchased 1.5 pounds of silver. Today 1.5 lbs of silver would be worth about $35-40/troy oz. So, in today's dollars, they purchase was $6-7k. That purchase was legal too.

That may not be quite and apples to apples comparison, but i do think that cultural treasures, like land, are not truly "ownable". For this reason, i think such artifact should be possessed by the nations that are descended from the culture of the makers of the artifacts so long as they can be reasonably cared for.

This does tie into my hope that the asteroid hits soon. Maybe if Manhattan gets obliterated by a nice, big rock the next island that the river create there can be inhabited by an HG or agrarian tribe.

[Minimalist]

In 1624 the Lanape tribe "owned" Manhattan. Peter Munuit bought the island from them for trade goods worth 60 guilders, which, at the time, could have purchased 1.5 pounds of silver.

Let's be fair, here. The Indians really didn't understand the transaction. We got Manhattan the way we got most of the Americas. By infecting them with European diseases and eventually shooting the survivors.

If an actual survivor of the Lenape showed up at Gracie Mansion and said he wanted his land back Bloomberg would have him locked up in Bellevue.

[dannan14]

But that is the connection i am making. The Indians world view didn't comprehend the ownership of land. Just as earlier cultures all over the world didn't have the same fascination with the past that we do. In both cases it's different points of view separated by time.

Who knows? In another 300 years they may want to sell it all back again. That would be fine by me. Some cycles are just a lot longer than we can grasp.

[Minimalist]

In another 300 years Manhattan may be underwater.

[Tiompan]

[quote="dannan14" Just as earlier cultures all over the world didn't have the same fascination with the past that we do. In both cases it's different points of view separated by time.

[/quote]

It is apparent that through the reuse of monuments and artefacts and continuity of non utiliatarian sites that earlier cultures did have a interest in the past and there are great numbers of us today who have no such interest or fascination .

George

[dannan14]

In another 300 years Manhattan may be underwater.

That would make a cool museum.....for divers at least

[dannan14]

Just as earlier cultures all over the world didn't have the same fascination with the past that we do. In both cases it's different points of view separated by time.

It is apparent that through the reuse of monuments and artefacts and continuity of non utiliatarian sites that earlier cultures did have a interest in the past and there are great numbers of us today who have no such interest or fascination .

George

Quite true. In any era you'll see the full range spread across the world. And on one side of that range you see monuments and buildings taken apart stone by stone to be recycled into new buildings. i realize i may have made it sound rather black and white, but i wasn't sober

[Digit]

I watched a TV programme some years ago that focussed on the Cairo museum's labs.
A 'conservator', as was stated in the voice over, 'did more damage in 30 minutes than history had in 3000 yrs!'
Cairo can't even afford, or won't spend, the necessary funds to preserve what they already have.
Going by the damage done by air pollution in Athens the Elgin marbles would be useless by now if Lord Elgin hadn't bought and paid for them.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I have to agree having been fortunate enough to see the Elgin Marbles during a 1996 trip to London and the Acropolis during a 2007 trip to Greece/Turkey.

This photo

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... atides.JPG

gives a close up view to the damage inflicted on the statues at the Erechtheion whereas the Elgin Marbles had not spent a couple of centuries being dissolved by air pollution kicked up by the truly dreadful Athenian traffic.

[Digit]

Well I reckon we should return all these items Min, along with a large bill for their safe storage over the intervening years!

Roy.