Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

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Minimalist
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Minimalist »

Having dug myself a hole the time has come to stop digging!
Give me the shovel. Multi-regionalism has always made more sense to me. One need only look at the diversity of modern "humans" ( Inuit, Watusi, Bushmen, isolated tribes in the Amazon or New Guinea) to see the effects of isolation and continual interbreeding. It is just not so unthinkable that an early wave of humanity became separated and isolated in Europe and evolved within that system for a while before regaining contact. They apparently did not, based on recent findings from the genome projects, evolve to the point where they could not interbreed successfully with other humans.

One other thought on the art work, Dig. Again, sheer speculation but perhaps we are dealing with one gifted individual with a talent who was able to teach others that art?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Digit
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

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One other thought on the art work, Dig. Again, sheer speculation but perhaps we are dealing with one gifted individual with a talent who was able to teach others that art?
Logic would dictate that that was how it began. The art work continued for some 1000s of yrs, this makes it a cultural thing.
The study of pre-history is the study of different cultures, and those cultures are defined by the typical artifacts of that culture, Clovis for example.
And the defining characteristic of each is that it is unique in its time and that it is indigenous. The Giza Pyramids, the Easter Island statues, even the Igloo.
This also applies to the art of cave complex of France and Spain, it is as defining as any form of stone tool.
Thus unless we wish to plead 'special case' the art is representative of a certain culture. The problem is, which culture?
The art started, ran for many years, then ceased. The normal conclusion when applied to stone tools vanishing from the stratigraphy is that the people went extinct. This argument is used in relation to HSN and Clovis.
And it is rubbish!
Apply it to the stone tools etc of the Native American and he became extinct some time during the 19C !
Actually what happens when cultures meet is that the technically superior culture absorbs the lesser. Anybody scalped by a NA after about 1830 lost his hair to a blade that was in all probability stamped. 'Made in Sheffield!'
Now if what we are discussing was a stone tool assemblage the club would accept it as evidence of a definite culture, so why the problem?
If, Min, you accept ...

The study of pre-history is the study of different cultures, and those cultures are defined by the typical artifacts of that culture, Clovis for example.
And the defining characteristic of each is that it is unique in its time and that it is indigenous.


.... the only people that we can fit into the picture is HSN!
Science has a nasty habit of tying itself in knots.
Take the calculations of the number of HSN that existed in Europe. Now we know that at some stage HSN buried his dead, thus the few examples available to us are those whose burials survived or my some michance were not buried, and any attempt to calculate numbers from that is as accurate as attempting a head count from the number of Cattle that die of natural causes!
There is actually not one piece of evidence that Clovis or HSN went extinct, there is evidence of a meeting with a new people.
The merging of people is so ignored you can even obtain copies of learned papers demonstrating how HSS wiped out HSN. It has taken over a 100 yrs for any alternative to be considered, and the alternative is staring you in the face when you look in a mirror.
What I have suggested may turn out to be incorrect, but at our current level of understanding it fits!

Roy.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

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There is actually not one piece of evidence that Clovis or HSN went extinct
Leaving HSN out of it, there is the fact that Clovis and post-Clovis are separated by archaeologically "sterile" areas. But....that might merely mean that Firestone is right and there was a cataclysm in North America which severely depleted the population. We cannot say that we have explored every possible area and there could have been a pocket of survivors and we simply have not found them. Or, they may have been wiped out and replaced by later arrivals from Asia.

But I agree that technology serves the hand which picks it up. When Zulu warriors picked up British rifles after Isandlwana they did not become members of the Coldstream Guards.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Digit »

Not knowing how large the Clovis population was immediately before they vanished Min, and with the wipeout theory currently in dispute, there are again alternatives.
They moved or their numbers are too low to leave any evidence.
I got into a heated debate with RS when I tried to make him accept that the earliest T Rex we have was damned unlikely to be the first of his kind and that the latest we have is again unlikely to be the last of his kind.
Below a certain number the evidence will simply disappear from the stratigraphy.
Material appears in the record suddenly and vanishes suddenly. The time taken to reach physical extinction after vanishing from the record may be quite lengthy, take the Coelacanth, still around but vanished from the record millions of years ago.
If we use the lack of physical evidence for the suggestion that Clovis was wiped out, then we also, IMO, agree that HSN became extinct. A more accurate statement would be that both cultures vanished below the detecable horizon, as with Maya, Aztec and others.

Roy.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Minimalist »

Given the unlikely set of circumstances ( death, quick burial, water, etc) required to produce any fossil we are lucky to have ANY fossils of anything. Further, as Dawkins has pointed out would the first recognizable T-Rex have been all that different from its parents? Someone posted this at Atheistforums.org

Image

It drove the creationists crazy which is admittedly a short drive.

What we can say is that we only find Clovis points in a specific strata. Below and above they are absent. Now,

Image

[Clovis - Folsom - Dalton}

someone would have to be blind not to see the similarities between Clovis and Folsom and as we know that Clovis was used to hunt mammoth perhaps the smaller Folsom point simply represents a change in target? Without megafauna the point could be made smaller and still be sufficient for a kill. Was there some human continuity between the two? I wouldn't rule it out.

But we can only speculate based on the tools we find.

HSN, OTOH, gives us genetic references which indicate that they were not exterminated but absorbed to one degree or another. Speaking of R/S I seem to recall he posted an excellent article which suggested that there was most likely not a single answer to the question of what happened when HSS met up with their long-lost cousins. In some places, obviously, there was peaceful co-existence. In others they may have clashed violently over resources. My gut reaction is that it is probably best to avoid looking for THE answer in a continent wide process. There could be many answers.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Cognito »

One other thought on the art work, Dig. Again, sheer speculation but perhaps we are dealing with one gifted individual with a talent who was able to teach others that art?

Logic would dictate that that was how it began. The art work continued for some 1000s of yrs, this makes it a cultural thing.
Roy, you have left one group out of your analysis.

There was a very low and possibly static population of HSNs in Eurasia when HSS began entering into their territory. However, the HSS population had already been growing at a relatively rapid rate for eons and would continue to do so, pushing consistently into Europe and elsewhere. It wouldn't take many generations for a static group of HSNs to disappear in an area where HSSs settled if the birth rates were even slightly different between the two groups.

For whatever reason, HSSs and HSNs interbred to the point where everyone outside of Africa today is from 1-4% Neanderthal (except me, I'm at least 5%). It is rarely emphasized, but that percentage is HUGE considering the fact that HSN washed out the the gene pool circa 26kya. I suspect those cold European nights were lonely and, as Steven Stills sang, "Love the one you're with" was taken literally.

My point? How many hybrids received the best of both lines? A big brain with a strong, but gracile body. Smarter and more clever than either parent, more athletic, and with better overall resistance to disease. Don't rule out the possibility that it is the hybrids who dunnit. :D
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

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I used to work for a guy who got the worst of both lines, Cogs.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by E.P. Grondine »

I see the post function is working again.

I have a problem with taxonomy which the paleao folks are going to have to solve.

When I used the term "Homo Heidelbergensis" in "Man and Impact in the Americas" for the robust Erectus I got a lot of s*** slung at me by some advanced tree apes. I needed to talk about the Zamanshan impact splitting this homonid population into two parts.
Now Dr. Mokhtar is hitting the same problem in Malaysia.

Could you please ask those folks to get their act together?

(Love the nice serations on the Dalton, Roy. You got any images of white chert Dalton Maritime Arcaic points handy? With provenience?)
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

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Don't rule out the possibility that it is the hybrids who dunnit.
Actually I don't Cogs. I posted on the subject of us being hybrids a number of times over the years, using the term 'hybrid vigour'.
The time periods support either, IMO, HSN or HSN X HSS rather than HSS.
What started me on the idea of us being a hybrid was the overlap in time and the oft stated comment that the paintings demonstrated, according to the club, 'an awakening' in the human mind.
All along there has been this supposition that HSS was the artist, a suppostion that has no evidence in support.
Two things interest me, why did they start and why did they stop?

Roy.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Cognito »

The time periods support either, IMO, HSN or HSN X HSS rather than HSS....Two things interest me, why did they start and why did they stop?
If you support the view that the hybrids dunnit then you answered your question of why they started. What is your understanding of the date bce that the paintings ceased? :wink:
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

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The way I see it Cog is that hybridisation may have caused the resulting flowering of intellect, but if HSN X were the artists the halting would logically be due to a change in 'religion' etc, the loss of the drive that started it.
One of the reasons that suggests, to me, that HSN were the possible artists is that the work ceased soon after HSS dominated the area.
The fact that it seemed to start as the two met, and that HSS left no similar work elsewhere would again logically suggest that either HSN of HSN X HSS were the artists.
If we knew why the start and why the stop we would have a much better understanding.
The lack of hunting scenes etc suggest to me some form of ritual, the difficulty of access seems to suggest that they were accessed at certain times/events, such as initiation of new hunters?
Strong 'religions' take over weaker ones, if HSN were the artists it could be that HSN X HSS or HSS decided that the paintings were no longer of any importance.
The options are too many to be definitive I think, but the lack of similar work by definitave HSS strongly supports HSN or the X.

Roy.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Cognito »

Image

The best estimates of dating the site appear to lie between 17-20,000bce and that rules out HSN unless there were late survivors we have yet to find - always a possibility. However, the Lago Vehlo hybrid child from Portugal dates to about 22,000bce, closer to the time of the paintings in France (Ref: http://donsmaps.com/lagar.html).

Based on the cave's dating, the answer to "Why did the paintings cease" could simply be: The LGM (22-16,000bce). That deep freeze was one of the most severe chills on record and drove populations south to Mediterranean refuges.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Digit »

Agreed on the dates as stated Cogs but, as I argued with RS, finding the first or last of a species must be odds of millions to one against.
Later HSN appeard to have buried his dead, thus the chances of finding bones must be even less than if he didn't bury his dead.
You posted some time ago on the number of HSN in Europe at a given time, as I obserbed earlier, once numbers fall below a certain level the chances of finding evidence of their existance becomes very small.
Take the KT boundary, in certain areas the upper limit is a hard line, above, no Dinos, below Dinos, and yet we still do not know whether they were wiped out 'over night' or spent hundreds of thousands of years dying out.
Same with HSN. The upper limit at where evidence ceases and the last HSN dying could be thousands of years apart, with him burying his dead he destroyed much of the evidence that we rely on for dating other species.
In addition, if we assume, and it is an assumption, that HSS did not physically wipe out HSN the tools that we use to date a given society could simply have been superceded by HSN adopting HSS tools, as happened with the Native Americans.

Roy.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Barracuda »

Occam's Razor....The simplest explanation is always that they left no evidence, or that if they did, we have not found it, yet. We may never find it.
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Re: Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

Post by Digit »

True, but I have this silly idea that if we lost our history we would have some future club member addressing a group of students and telling them that the Native American was wiped in the 19C, and offering as proof the complete absence of stone tools etc after that date.

Roy.
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